[ShepherdsDog]

Tman1 Tman1:

ShepherdsDogs concept of 'England never a French possession' is wrong.

The only thing you're incorrect about is me being incorrect.

Only in his role as Duke of Normandy was William a vassal of the French throne. As King of England he owed fealty to no one, and the conflicts that erupted in France between William and his neigbours, some of them his own vassals proved that he brooked no competition. The lands he held in France were the only lands of William that sent tithe/tribute to the French crown.

To say England was a French posession/vassal is the same as saying the United Kingdom was a posession/vassal of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Habsburgs(Leopold I), because George I was also Elector of Hanover.

Tman1 Tman1:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The Normans weren't French either, they were Norse who settled into the area now known as Normandy and just adopted the French language.

Yeah....I never said they were French did I?

I didn't see anyone accusing you of calling them French.

[Tman1]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Only in his role as Duke of Normandy was William a vassal of the French throne. As King of England he owed fealty to no one, and the conflicts that erupted in France between William and his neigbours, some of them his own vassals proved that he brooked no competition. The lands he held in France were the only lands of William that sent tithe/tribute to the French crown.

That's a matter of semantics and loopholes, even in the Middle Ages. As King of England he had equality to the French kings but he was still a vassal to the king of France and always would be, that doesn't change nor would the Anglo-Norman kings thereafter who thought themselves as French and wanted French lands. When you think about it, the vassal is obliged to serve their king and when one of their vassals conquers another territory, it goes to their king. Granted the French crown was split up and not united in all of France. If England can claim parts of France because of marriage and lineage, then what is the difference of France holding lands in England as posessions?

$1:

I didn't see anyone accusing you of calling them French.

Then why bring up that insignificant little fact? Nobody was disputing them being French either.

[EyeBrock]

Vassal to the king of France? What history book were you reading? Unfounded nonsense.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

kenmore kenmore:

maldonsfecht maldonsfecht:

piss off... it's our heritage... it BELONGS on the flags... just like here in Nova Scotia we have the reversal of the Scottish Cross of St. Andrews and the Rampant Lion... Canada itself is descended from our British Colonial rule... get a life, or a history book NDP

Actually the french were here first... with settlements in Montreal,Quebec city and Kingston.. hence the crap over the Plains of Abraham..

Perhaps you should make a new flag with what you have now and add Louis Reil on it.. that would be nice. I am serious here...

Er, Newfoundland had Brits before the New French, as did the US (Mayflower and all that). The other thing you overlook is that the French, as in France, left you lot to deal with us. After we kicked their Gallic arses.

Vikings before that...

[EyeBrock]

Indeed.
The good old Norse guys were well used to English shores. Northern English dilaects reflect our Norse heritage.

[ShepherdsDog]

Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norse and Normans, all part of the same ethnic group, speaking dialects of the same original language.....well the Normans were corrupted by the Dark Side(they had fois gras and wine) and gave up their own tongue for French......in a couple of generations.

If you ever listen to Old English, it sounds more like modern Swedish in its rhythm and sounds.

[maldonsfecht]

As my avatar denotes, my family name is Anglo-Saxon and I am very interested in the history of and connection between the Germanic tibes of Europe.
I studied and translated Anglo-Saxon (Old English) in university and studied modern German at the same time... after that I did a full-year exchange to Stockholm, Sweden... It is quite remarkable to see the similarities between those languages... Old English is basically just stripped-down modern English (minus the French and some of the later Danish/Norwegian influences)... 20% of modern English is made up of the original Germanic language 80% French/Latinate base HOWEVER, that 20% of the Germanic is used 80% of the time in everyday spoken/written English.
Reading Anglo-Saxon texts, it is (after getting accustomed to the letter-shifts as in Grimm's Law) easy to see modern words, and the rest was either related to the German or Swedish I had learned.
As Brock mentions above, Northern English dialects (particularly in Scotland) are heavily influenced by the Norse (Norwegian in Scotland/Ireland, Danish in England [the Swedes went to the East, in through what is now Russia forming kingdoms and serving as Imperial soldiers and bodyguards for the Byzantine Empire... even carving runes into the Hagia Sophia]).

[Goober_McGee]

The Union Jack never really represented Canada or Canadians. A simple look at Canadian history can tell you that in a lot of areas Britain used Canada for it's own aims without considering how we felt about it. We fought two simultaneous rebellions against the British establishment, we also raised regiments and militia to fight against Americans in 1812 showing that we not only wanted to have a separate future from Britain, but from America too. You'll also note that many of the British immigrants are Scottish and Irish, neither of whom really like the English...even now after uncountable generations in Canada.

The Union Jack is a part of our history, but we are not British and haven't been since Europeans began settling here after the fall of New France. Our bloodline is linked to this land, not some small group of islands of the coast of Europe. Canadians are a healthy mix of of Germanic, Celtic, Latin and Slavic cultures.

As for the flag of Manitoba, maybe just a red background with a buffalo silhouette in the centre would nice.

[ShepherdsDog]

the prologue to Beowulf in Old English



The Lord's Prayer

[Akhenaten]

There are 2 kinds of Canadians. The ones who have caught on that the NDP are just kind of a joke party or a lampoon like the Onion news or Jon Stewart, and those who haven't caught on yet.





Akh

[EyeBrock]

maldonsfecht maldonsfecht:

As my avatar denotes, my family name is Anglo-Saxon and I am very interested in the history of and connection between the Germanic tibes of Europe.
I studied and translated Anglo-Saxon (Old English) in university and studied modern German at the same time... after that I did a full-year exchange to Stockholm, Sweden... It is quite remarkable to see the similarities between those languages... Old English is basically just stripped-down modern English (minus the French and some of the later Danish/Norwegian influences)... 20% of modern English is made up of the original Germanic language 80% French/Latinate base HOWEVER, that 20% of the Germanic is used 80% of the time in everyday spoken/written English.
Reading Anglo-Saxon texts, it is (after getting accustomed to the letter-shifts as in Grimm's Law) easy to see modern words, and the rest was either related to the German or Swedish I had learned.
As Brock mentions above, Northern English dialects (particularly in Scotland) are heavily influenced by the Norse (Norwegian in Scotland/Ireland, Danish in England [the Swedes went to the East, in through what is now Russia forming kingdoms and serving as Imperial soldiers and bodyguards for the Byzantine Empire... even carving runes into the Hagia Sophia]).

A very good grasp of the English language's heredity.

To this day there are still huge linguistic differences in England that mirror the Danish occupation and the Saxon and Norman provinces/fiefdoms.
We Northerners preferred the Dansk view over the French and Saxon ones. Visit Yorvik (York) and see how the Norse impacted the English.
England is still divided between the north and south in so many ways.

Some North Americans forget how complex British and Irish ethnicity/ history really is. The meanings of these flags far surpasses nice colours and the odd bison. Its thousands of years of culture and heritage.
Lose it if you must as you rush to forget your true roots.

[llama66]

I once tried to read Le Morte D'Arthur, I kept getting fouled up on the Olde English.

[ShepherdsDog]

morte d'arthur was written in French....that could be what'd giving you trouble

[maldonsfecht]

llama66 llama66:

I once tried to read Le Morte D'Arthur, I kept getting fouled up on the Olde English.

That's not Old(e) English at all bud!

That's solid Middle-English along the same lines as Chaucer and the Gawain and the Green Knight poet... this stage of English is heavy with loan-words from the french and latin of the Normans and clergy, as well as retaining some of the now out of use Anglo-Saxon origins...

This line from the beginning of the 7th chapter

ANd at the feste of pentecost alle maner of men assayed to pulle at the swerde that wold assay

(Modern: And at the feast of Pentecost, all manner of men that wished to try attempted to pull at the sword)

There is heavy Norman influence in words such as assayed (as in essayer in modern French) whereas swerde is still very much English sword / German Schwert / Swedish Svärd...

True Old English is closer to Old Norse or Icelandic than it is to modern English.

This line from The Battle of Maldon (see Maldonsfecht comes from this... fecht is German for fight... the gh in modern english is soft, whereas it's cognate in German is hard (as in the 'ch' in Scottish loch): so fight=Fecht right=Recht laugh=Lache

Byrhtelmes bearn (beornas gehlyston):
"Nu eow is gerymed, gað ricene to us,
guman to guþe; god ana wat
hwa þære wælstowe wealdan mote."

the letter þ is called "thorn" and has the sound of the th in that word... the symbol comes from the Germanic runic alphabet and survives in Modern Icelandic

Then over cold water Byrhthelm's son
began to call (men listened):
"Now you have room: come quickly to us,
warriors to war. God alone knows
who may master this battlefield."

This text is heavily Germanic and may look strange, but the roots are there...

Nu=Now nu is now in modern Swedish as well

the ge- as in gerymed is used before past-tense verbs, as it is in Modern German

so "made room for" is ge-rym-ed rym=room
and so on...

beorn for man or child is still used in Scotland today, bearn... in Sweden, barn is child...

------------------

Anyway, a long drawn-out response to your comment, but trust me, Morte D'Arthur is a wonderful piece of Middle English

[maldonsfecht]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

maldonsfecht maldonsfecht:

As my avatar denotes, my family name is Anglo-Saxon and I am very interested in the history of and connection between the Germanic tibes of Europe.
I studied and translated Anglo-Saxon (Old English) in university and studied modern German at the same time... after that I did a full-year exchange to Stockholm, Sweden... It is quite remarkable to see the similarities between those languages... Old English is basically just stripped-down modern English (minus the French and some of the later Danish/Norwegian influences)... 20% of modern English is made up of the original Germanic language 80% French/Latinate base HOWEVER, that 20% of the Germanic is used 80% of the time in everyday spoken/written English.
Reading Anglo-Saxon texts, it is (after getting accustomed to the letter-shifts as in Grimm's Law) easy to see modern words, and the rest was either related to the German or Swedish I had learned.
As Brock mentions above, Northern English dialects (particularly in Scotland) are heavily influenced by the Norse (Norwegian in Scotland/Ireland, Danish in England [the Swedes went to the East, in through what is now Russia forming kingdoms and serving as Imperial soldiers and bodyguards for the Byzantine Empire... even carving runes into the Hagia Sophia]).

A very good grasp of the English language's heredity.

To this day there are still huge linguistic differences in England that mirror the Danish occupation and the Saxon and Norman provinces/fiefdoms.
We Northerners preferred the Dansk view over the French and Saxon ones. Visit Yorvik (York) and see how the Norse impacted the English.
England is still divided between the north and south in so many ways.

Some North Americans forget how complex British and Irish ethnicity/ history really is. The meanings of these flags far surpasses nice colours and the odd bison. Its thousands of years of culture and heritage.
Lose it if you must as you rush to forget your true roots.

Thanks for the compliment Brock! I love the English language and its history fascinates me... the travels abroad have helped sharpen that respect for my heritage...

As you mention regarding the complex ethnicity and history of the Isles, I think that there is so much to be learned and found right in our cultural base that I often wonder at how everyone takes it for granted and seeks enlightenment elsewhere. I'm all for learning about foreign lands and cultures, but I think one should thoroughly know their own first.

The Union Flag and its component parts made for an interesting lesson in and of itself when I was teaching English in the Czech Republic. Most of them had no idea of the symbolism inherent to that beautiful banner. (Of course, it seems I may now be able to say the same thing about not only my American friends, but some Canadian ones as well)

It was under this flag that our nation grew and expanded, under this flag that our nation fought and established its identity as a sovereign nation and while I hold that to be Canadian is not the same as to be British, I think it is most certainly naive to say that this flag and its connection to this land is anything short of intrinsic.

Anyone who cares to argue is welcome to do so in the language of my forefathers, the Anglo-Saxons, in the country established through strife, effort and then brotherhood, under the Union Jack.