[Hyack]

The link in the first post was taken directly from the story, the fact that it no longer works has nothing to do with this site. Try the following link taken directly from the National Post.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2010/01/13/terry-glavin-cover-up-what-are-the-liberals-hiding.aspx

[andyt]

It doesn't seem to load up either. No biggie really. I'm just curious what could be so scandalous. If it has any meat to it, I'm sure I'll read about it in the Globe and Mail.

[Zipperfish]

The Liberals knew Afghans were being tortured? Get OUT!!!!

Newsflash: Frickin' everybody knew Afghans were being tortured. You'd have to be Mary Poppins to think that Afghans in prison there were, maybe, offered innovatiove treatment programs to help them with thir troubles, or provided with training to assist them find jobs when they got out. This is Afghanistan, people. This is what they've been doing for centuries, it's what they are still doing today, and--despite protestations otherwise from the various government talking heads--it's what they will continue to do for a long time to come.

The CPC's big mistake was--again--treating the electorate like we're a bunch of idiots. Wheeling out Peter McKay--the biggest liar since Bill Clinton-- and getting him to act all shocked--shocked--at the very idea of torture. And then engaging in a display of redaction, obfuscation and denial of frankly farcical proportions.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

The Liberals knew Afghans were being tortured? Get OUT!!!!

Newsflash: Frickin' everybody knew Afghans were being tortured.

Sure but as the liberals continued to pontificate and the electorate got angrier and angrier that Harper might be a war criminal, and meanwhile dismissing any notion that the "The Liberals did it too" argument was a strawman, now they will see that it's a much more level playing field and the Liberals are more guilty than they ever let on. I believe that will backfire on them big time.

To your point form the other day: Canadians don't like it when they're told what they think is important. By the same measure Canadians don't like being made fools of by a party that is being hypocritical (to say the least) in their accusations of how the CPC was 'alerted to detainee abuse and didn't do anything'. When it's made clear that not only 'neither did the Liberals' but also they created this mess, well it's going to backfire.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

If it has any meat to it, I'm sure I'll read about it in the Globe and Mail.

Sorry but no you wont read it there. They've chosen which narrative to sell and the first rule is you don't deviate from that.

Links:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... iding.aspx

Original:
http://www.cepes.uqam.ca/spip.php?article478


Translation:

$1:

Just saying is all. This should not be taken as a disinclination to Iggy's Liberals or a political preference for any of the Liberals' adversaries or their recent antics about this "scandal." Just saying, is all. The Liberals knew.

The link to the article in La Presse, which was accessible on the website of the Centre d'études des politiques étrangères a only a few hours ago, is now redirecting to a "403 Forbidden" page. But it's still obtainable in Google's cache. One can only wonder whether Canada's English language newspapers have this article in their morgues. Did no Anglo journalist even bother trying to match this scoop? With due acknowledgment to the diligent work undertaken by the Torchists, who first noticed something amiss a month ago, here's the English translation:

April 28, 2007:

"Canadian diplomats stationed in Kabul warned the former Liberal government in 2003, 2004 and 2005 that torture was commonplace in Afghan prisons. In spite of these warnings, the Martin government signed an agreement with the Karzai government in December 2005 to hand over all Canadian-captured prisoners to Afghan authorities, Foreign Affairs documents obtained by La Presse reveal.

"From 2002 to 2005, the Canadian practice regarding Afghan detainees suspected of Taliban ties was to hand them over to U.S. military authorities. Ottawa decided to shift its transfers to Afghan authorities, however, in response to abuse allegations at the Guantánamo Bay internment center and the controversy that erupted over revelations of torture and degradation at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"The December 2005 agreement to transfer detainees to Afghan authorities was concluded despite the content of annual reports from Canadian diplomats covering broad assessments of Afghanistan's progress in human rights protection and the development of democratic institutions. According to a 2004 report: 'The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission concludes from its monitors' assessments that torture remains a current practice, particularly during the early stages of police investigations, in order to extract confessions from prisoners.'

"While the Afghan government was not accused of condoning physical violence in the treatment of prisoners, a 2005 report filed by Canadian diplomats noted that the Afghan military, police and intelligence services were implicated in arbitrary arrests, kidnappings, extortion, torture, and the murder of criminal suspects. Police commanders and officers were also implicated in many allegations of rape. The alleged victims included women, girls and boys.

"While Liberal deputy leader John McCallum was defence minister in 2003, his colleague Bill Graham was foreign affairs minister. In an interview, Mr McCallum told La Presse had never seen the Foreign Affairs' documents. Mr Graham took over as defence minister in June 2004 and still held the post when Canada signed the agreement in December 2005.

"An anonymous Liberal source, well acquainted with the situation, said the Martin government believed that the situation had improved in Afghan prisons when the agreement was concluded: 'From 2002 to 2005, we transferred our prisoners to the Americans. But that became politically untenable because of the stories about Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. These events, and our certainty that things had improved in the Afghan prison system, convinced us to sign the detainee transfer agreement with the Afghans,' the source explained.

"However, the Martin government had received annual reports that ill-treatment in Afghan prisoners was commonplace, and the reports closely compare with the report disclosed in a Toronto daily newspaper Wednesday that has caused such a stir in the House of Commons. That document shows that going back to 2006, torture has been a routine practice in Afghan prisons. Opposition parties cited these reports to accuse the Harper government of closing its eyes on violations of Afghan prisoners' rights. The Globe and Mail also reported this week that about 30 Taliban prisoners say they were abused by local Afghan police after they were transferred by Canadian soldiers.

"The Harper government didn't help its cause this week, making several contradictory statements about Afghan prisoners captured by Canadian soldiers and delivered to local authorities in the Kandahar area. Defence minister Gordon O'Connor was the source of the confusion and plunged the Conservatives into embarrassment. The minister initially said that the Independent Human Rights Commission monitors the condition of prisoners to ensure they are well treated, but the commission does not have the financial means nor the staff to undertake the task.

"Then, on Wednesday, Mr O'Connor said that Canada had concluded an agreement with authorities in Kandahar allowing Canadian soldiers a right of access to Afghan detainees to ensure they're not being ill-treated. This was contradicted 24 hours later by prime minister Stephen Harper, who confirmed in the House of Commons on Thursday that no formal agreement exists to allow this access, but that the Canadian authorities hoped to conclude one soon.

"Then public safety minister Stockwell Day added to confusion when he said that for several weeks Corrections Canada staff had been afforded access to the Afghan prisons in the Kandahar area. Then Mr Day moderated his remarks by affirming that two Corrections Canada staff members had been sent to Afghanistan to advise local prison authorities, and then he he explained that their mandate had been broadened so that they could look into the the practice of torture in Afghan prisons."

There you have it.

No matter how laggardly and inattentive the Conservatives may have been in fixing up the whole mess, let it no longer be said that the Conservatives made it, at least not by themselves. The Conservatives inherited a slapdash and jerryrigged process from the Liberals, and if it was a mess it was because the Liberals made it, first. And they knew they were making a mess. And they did it anyway.

Just how it has come to pass that the Liberals have been able to make so much hay out of the "detainee abuse scandal" at the expense of their successors in the Conservative Party may prove to be one of those enduring mysteries of Ottawa politics. Or, in the alternative, some plucky reporter will strike out from the herd and resolve the mystery, at the expense of his colleagues' reputations.

Or not.

[EyeBrock]

Blogs are bollocks.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Sure but as the liberals continued to pontificate and the electorate got angrier and angrier that Harper might be a war criminal, and meanwhile dismissing any notion that the "The Liberals did it too" argument was a strawman, now they will see that it's a much more level playing field and the Liberals are more guilty than they ever let on. I believe that will backfire on them big time.

To your point form the other day: Canadians don't like it when they're told what they think is important. By the same measure Canadians don't like being made fools of by a party that is being hypocritical (to say the least) in their accusations of how the CPC was 'alerted to detainee abuse and didn't do anything'. When it's made clear that not only 'neither did the Liberals' but also they created this mess, well it's going to backfire.

OK, only the far left wingnuts would consider Harper a war criminal. That's a ridiculous accusation, especially considering he inherited the war as Prime Minister. I doubt there are many Canaidans who put Harper in the same camp as Radovan Karadzic.

"The Liberals did it too" is a strawman argument, and that straw is getting pretty darn old as well. The Conservatives have been in power for several years now. Maybe it's time for them to grow and stop blaming everything on the past government. That's the opposition's job; the governing party shoud govern.

And the Liberals are more guilty of what? Being aware that there is torture in Afghan prisons? Well, if that's the case, cuff me, because I was pretty aware of that too. They did nothing about it? Well what's to do? Oh I know, we'll have Akhmed come out of a cell with his butcher's apron dripping with blood and sign on the dotted line that the prisoner he's about to take won't be abused. How deos that sound? Or maybe we'll just institute a policy of summary execution in the field, so we won't have prisoners. Or how about we quadruple our effort in Afghanistan and start building POW bases and start looking after the prisoners ourselves?

I tell you what the Liberals are guilty of--bringing this issue up when they know that virtually all of the serious solutions to this problem would be pretty unpalatable to a country not used to invading and occupying foreign nations. They weren't being serious; they were just slinging mud. However, if the Conseravtives hadn't have played silly bugger with it, this issue would have gone away a long time ago.

[EyeBrock]

I agree Zip. The Libs have played silly buggers by making this an issue but the Tory's couldn't have handled it worse.

When you fuck up you are best just to admit it and say you’re sorry, won’t happen again and all that good stuff.
It would have taken the wind out of the Libs sails.

But dodging, slinging mud back just makes you look guilty.

Really, are they all idiots on the Hill? Both sides certainly appear to be on this issue. Bloody amateurs the lot of them.

[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I agree Zip. The Libs have played silly buggers by making this an issue but the Tory's couldn't have handled it worse.

When you fuck up you are best just to admit it and say you’re sorry, won’t happen again and all that good stuff.
It would have taken the wind out of the Libs sails.

But dodging, slinging mud back just makes you look guilty.

Really, are they all idiots on the Hill? Both sides certainly appear to be on this issue. Bloody amateurs the lot of them.

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I don't think the people of Canada are stupid. I think they can handle the truth--yes, Afghans are being mistreated in their prisons and without some pretty unpalatable choices (some of which I listed above) there's not a whole lot Canada is in a position to do about it.

If it was up to me, I'd bitch-smack the fez right off Karzai's head and say "We invade your country and this is thanks we get? Fuck you, we're outta here."

[EyeBrock]

I agree. Politicians think that every 'bad' thing has to hidden or excuses made. Just tell it as it is and I'm sure the 80% who are not rabid partisans can hack it.

The truth will set you free politicians.

[uwish]

First off since I was the one to post this 'blog' I apologize for not putting it where it should have gone. I have seen blogs on the main site before thus, I assumed it was ok. My mistake.

[Akhenaten]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I tell you what the Liberals are guilty of--bringing this issue up when they know that virtually all of the serious solutions to this problem would be pretty unpalatable to a country not used to invading and occupying foreign nations. They weren't being serious; they were just slinging mud. However, if the Conseravtives hadn't have played silly bugger with it, this issue would have gone away a long time ago.

Dude we're in 100% agreement. Are you sure you don't want to re-phrase?

I'm not cutting the CPC loose/off the hook either, but what you say above is pretty much what I mean when my argument is reduced to "The Liberals did it too."

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Blogs are bollocks.

Agreed. Or at least I understand the sentiment. But all this blog is doing is translating a story from Quebec that hasn't been reported in the English news. It's pretty straightforward in that regard.

[EyeBrock]

Robair, I forgive you mate! Honest mistake.

Now all we need to do is get our politicians to follow your lead!

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Dude we're in 100% agreement. Are you sure you don't want to re-phrase?

Well, just because we agree doesn't mean we can't still argue ad nauseum about it.

[EyeBrock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM