[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

Israel isnt the problem, in case you haven't noticed.


The rest of your ideas, I can't tell if you are blind or just ignorant..
probably both.

In any case, you are without doubt young, and as you grow up, you'll eventually learn.

I am old enough to see that all that has been created is a circle of violence and clearly you are entirely willing to let it continue until either the Israelis or Palestinians have been wiped off the face of the planet. The only way to end a circle of violence is to enter real diplomatic negotiations that you don't call off every couple days and wait a month between the attempts.

There is no such thing as one side being entirely right, Israel has done as little to pacify the situation as the Palestinians have. If it is left long enough eventually one group will lose their support and the other will no longer be willing to negotiate on any level because they will know they can get away with taking everything. The Israelis and Palestinians have tried violence for 60 years and yet no progress is being made, it is time to try diplomacy, something you seem to have forgotten about.

[martin14]

There is no reason to legitimize Palestinian violence over the last 60 years.

When they can stop themselves, then there may be peace.

[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

There is no reason to legitimize Palestinian violence over the last 60 years.

When they can stop themselves, then there may be peace.

If I took your house, your job, forced you into living off food stamps I have to approve and in order to get them you have to submit to a regular cavity search, how long until you resist?

[martin14]

Human relocation has been going on for a long time.


3 lost wars and numerous smaller stuff has shown this.

The Palis have lost their house, time they learned to deal with that.

[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

Human relocation has been going on for a long time.


3 lost wars and numerous smaller stuff has shown this.

The Palis have lost their house, time they learned to deal with that.

The Palestinians lost more than a house, they lost houses that their family may have owned for centuries, they lost homes they had fought to defend from invaders for centuries. They died to defend what was theirs for thousands of years only to have it stripped away because the west refused to accept the Jews into their own nations. Now they are not after all their houses, just being able to regain the ones that were taken when the region was attacked in 1967.

The fact there have been three major wars and constant fighting in some form shows just how badly they want to get something back, you cannot continue to take from an entire nation and expect them to just sit down and take it. They will eventually resist and the longer you continue to push them the more damage you cause and the harder it becomes to fix. Eventually it is no longer about the land but about revenge, at that point you have created a cycle of violence that is almost impossible to stop.

[martin14]

jeff744 jeff744:

Now they are not after all their houses, just being able to regain the ones that were taken when the region was attacked in 1967.

The Hamas Charter says you are 100% wrong.



Now, before launching another tirade about this or that,
sit down and think about that for a moment.



The Hamas Charter says you are 100% wrong.

[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

jeff744 jeff744:

Now they are not after all their houses, just being able to regain the ones that were taken when the region was attacked in 1967.

The Hamas Charter says you are 100% wrong.



Now, before launching another tirade about this or that,
sit down and think about that for a moment.



The Hamas Charter says you are 100% wrong.

I don't give a damned what Hamas says, I am talking about the Palestinians, think about that one for a second. Hamas only exists in strength because the Palestinians allow it to, if you are able to pacify the people then terror groups lose their strength. Israel has had chances to make massive progress in pacifying the situation but refuse to negotiate.

Why it is that the US doesn't have regular riots like the UK youth riots? Because they lack an organized group thats sole existence is to cause them (and as far as I know the UK lacks this too) or because the youth in the US do not have something to riot over?

[martin14]

jeff744 jeff744:

I don't give a damned what Hamas says, I am talking about the [u]Palestinians

and yet only one page before.....

jeff744 jeff744:

You are aware that Hamas is only able to succeed to the level that it is is because Hamas is the only group nearby that has actually been doing anything for Palestine. ...... The only way that Palestinians can do anything is by embracing Hamas, if they are given a genuine nations with a genuine military it gives a legal and regulated alternative.

So, on one page, you want try and separate Hamas and the population,

and the page before you praise the Palis for selecting Hamas.


And if you dont care what Hamas says, then by association you dont care what
the Palis say either....






very funny




I think you are done here, Jeff, but thanks for coming out to play.

[desertdude]

Martin, one of those Israeli fanbois looking out trough spin tainted glasses. Their reasoning is fanstastic.

Even of the Israeli shelled a school full of children, they would say that the school got in the way and hit itself on the shell. Not the first famboi I've met.

These Fanbois specially don't like to argue facts instead resorting to spin, smoke and mirrors and what about-ery arguments.

First of all Hamas isn't even in the picture in all of this, infact they have denouced Abbas for trying to do this. Then the Fanbois keep making noise that there needs to be a diplomatic solution to this. So this is exactly what the Palestenians are doing now, but ofcourse now the fanbois are not very happy about this either.

Second of all, ALWAYS ignoring the Arab Peace Plan, signed by everybody INCLUDING Hamas which includes full recognition of an Israeli state but guess who hasn't signed the dotted line on that agreement.

I think if the US does not does its usually Veto thing when it comes to anything regarding Israel I don't think how this cannot happen and maybe this time they won't

I think the US still hasn't forgotten the snub Israel gave it when to halt settelements last time.

Lets see what happens, one thing is for sure, expect Israel to cry like a baby and throw all its toys out of the pram if this does go through tough.

[commanderkai]

jeff744 jeff744:

How many of those groups are actually standing up for the Palestinians and not just bending over to everything that Israel demands?

A number of them, including Fatah, the United Nations, a number of aid groups, and the Arab states.

$1:

The Palestinians wanted a group that was willing to stand up for them without having to ask Israel if it was alright first. If you continue to push a group they will inevitably turn around and fight you and unless you are able to utterly destroy them or pacify them the situation will only ever get worse. Look at the colonization of the new world, England tried to push the natives aside and met constant conflict, the French lived with the natives and created a peaceful alternative, the natives actually wanted the french to build forts nearby.

Except the Palestinian terrorist organizations, like Hamas, aren't some bullshit David vs. Goliath story. This is the real world, and acting like the Palestinians are somehow going to beat Israel by actively attacking and provoking Israel will not work. If the Palestinians truly want their own independent state, provoking the very irritated, and well armed, maybe even paranoid giant will not benefit the Palestinians in any sense of the word. Putting Hamas in power was one major act of provocation by the Palestinians, and it did not help their cause at all, but probably set it back by years, if not decades.

$1:

Their popularity comes from the fact that all the international bodies are either dead set on one side or the other and are completely unwilling to enter genuine negotiations.

$1:

Hamas is actually willing to stand up for the Palestinians, I only defend that part of Hamas, not the terrorism. The UN is utterly useless because of the US vetoing anything they do not like related to the Palestinians, no solution will ever come until both have legitimate bodies to negotiate from. Israel is not some innocent child that is the victim of locals beating them up, Israel continues to freeze negotiations and refuses to allow the Palestinians to have any way to balance the negotiations.

I'm going to take this as a yes, you are that naive about what Hamas is. Israel is not going to negotiate with an organization that actively calls for its destruction. It'd make absolutely no sense for them to do so, since the negotiated ceasefire with Hamas ended about five days after it's creation, back in 2006. Hamas "stands up" to Israel by launching mortars and rockets against the Israeli populace, something that places the Palestinians in worse shape.

You cannot defend Hamas by trying to isolate it's "terrorism" aspect. Hamas is a terrorist organization. It's actions, like conducting social programs, is done to further its control over the Gazan population in order to conduct further terrorism, in its attempt to destroy Israel.

$1:

Because the Hamas are actually doing something, they do not have a legitimate body to stand behind so the people support the one that defends them the most. It is not about what Israel wants in Palestine, people do not think "I will vote for X just to get at the Israelis", they think "I will vote for X because they have/will do more for me than the other guys". Hamas has managed to completely take over because Israel has allowed a situation where the issue is fighting back, not building schools or hospitals.

And after that election, Hamas purged its opposition in a bloody little civil war, and actively attacks those who doesn't follow their views on how Gaza should be run. That's also how Hamas took over Gaza, try not to forget that. Also, don't forget that Hamas isn't exactly wanting another election anytime soon. Fatah, who I don't have a high opinion of, at least attempts to keep some political legitimacy.

To say that Hamas is doing something isn't enough. Hamas is actively harming and damaging its chances to become an independent state. Israel, if you like it or not, does have the upper hand due to technological superiority, a democratically elected, stable government, and a relatively liberal view on social issues, including tolerance for other faiths. In other words, Israel has political legitimacy since it's a stable, democratic government that represents, and is held accountable by its people. Hamas is not defending the Palestinians, but rather putting them in extreme risk for any future that isn't under Israeli military threat.

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Do you honestly think that hamas wants to end the conflict. It's their raison d'etre. The average Arab is sick of the fighting and like everyone else wants to raise their children in peace and make some money. Hamas won't allow that to happen because then their leaders lose their cash and villas.

I agree. But then I don't think Israel wants to end it either. Which is why it would be waste of time to grant Palestine statehood. Then they waste even more of the UN's time on their ongoing battle. It'd be like giving Tweedledum and Tweedledee seats.

[ShepherdsDog]

Hamas doesn't give a shit about what goes on outside of their strip. The Settlers are building in Judea and Samaria(West Bank) not Gaza...there's absolutely nothing kosher there anymore.. I sometimes wonder if Hamas keeps up their shit to try and undermine their Fatah rivals.

[commanderkai]

desertdude desertdude:

Martin, one of those Israeli fanbois looking out trough spin tainted glasses. Their reasoning is fanstastic.

Ah I see, because your glasses aren't narrowly focused and slathered on by some romantic optimism on Hamas?

$1:

Even of the Israeli shelled a school full of children, they would say that the school got in the way and hit itself on the shell. Not the first famboi I've met.

These Fanbois specially don't like to argue facts instead resorting to spin, smoke and mirrors and what about-ery arguments.

Is this coming from somebody who, so far, has used nothing but emotional rhetoric and a strawman that absolutely nobody came close to setting up? You do see the irony about making the bullshit statement over the school, and yet making that last little sentence, don't you?

$1:

First of all Hamas isn't even in the picture in all of this, infact they have denouced Abbas for trying to do this. Then the Fanbois keep making noise that there needs to be a diplomatic solution to this. So this is exactly what the Palestenians are doing now, but ofcourse now the fanbois are not very happy about this either.

Of course they're in the picture. Like it or not, and I do not like it, Hamas is a part of a Palestinian government. As such, talking about a diplomatic solution to the crisis will have to deal with groups like Hamas that actively call for Israel's destruction

$1:

Second of all, ALWAYS ignoring the Arab Peace Plan, signed by everybody INCLUDING Hamas which includes full recognition of an Israeli state but guess who hasn't signed the dotted line on that agreement.

I think the US still hasn't forgotten the snub Israel gave it when to halt settelements last time.

Lets see what happens, one thing is for sure, expect Israel to cry like a baby and throw all its toys out of the pram if this does go through tough.

And what's your point? Outside of recognizing Israel, it does not address any other issues outside of putting them completely on the Palestinian side. The "refugee" issue is the major point that Israel won't address, nor should they, considering they shouldn't be forced to accept hundreds of thousands of people that the Arab states isolated, ignored, or outright abused for their political purposes.

Also, amusingly, did you forget all about when Israel pulled out all of its settlers from Gaza? I mean, certainly we shouldn't forget about the major attempt by Israel to reach out to the Palestinians, giving them free reign, including leftover economic assets? Oh that's right, a few years later, Hamas seized power, and began engaging Israel IN A WAR. Yeah. Sure, Israel's going to be extremely receptive after that.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I agree. But then I don't think Israel wants to end it either. Which is why it would be waste of time to grant Palestine statehood. Then they waste even more of the UN's time on their ongoing battle. It'd be like giving Tweedledum and Tweedledee seats.

I think Israel's desire for peace ended after what happened over Gaza. In my opinion, Israel's biggest outreach for peace basically blew up right in their face, and now Israel would rather have security and isolation from the Palestinians. If Gaza worked out more favorably, through Fatah taking control of Gaza instead of Hamas, this entire conflict would have been more settled. Sadly, that's not how history played out.

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai commanderkai:

I think Israel's desire for peace ended after what happened over Gaza. In my opinion, Israel's biggest outreach for peace basically blew up right in their face, and now Israel would rather have security and isolation from the Palestinians. If Gaza worked out more favorably, through Fatah taking control of Gaza instead of Hamas, this entire conflict would have been more settled. Sadly, that's not how history played out.

The way I see, they've been playing the same game ever since I was old enough to watch and understand the news. It's the same old arguments, the same events, the same promises, the same broken promises, over and over again. At some point, I realized that there is a strong case to be made that both sides must be relatively content with this low-level conflict, because it has never changed. Also, the fact that both sides spend more time trying to drum up global PR for their point of view than they do dealing with each other is another hint that I don't think either side is committed to change.

This way, Hamas--and even the PA--can blame all the ills of the Palestinian people on Israel and ice over their corrupt and feckless regimes. Israel can go ahead and expand unilaterally as they see fit and they don't have to deal with the Palestinian return issue.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both full of shit. I got no time for either of them.

*edit* And if that sounds a little dismissive, it's not meant to be. I respect your opinion as always.