[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I'm aware that Karzai and his boys are not much better than the taliban, but they are better.

People forget that outside of North America or other developed nations, there are a lot of socially backward nations. Think of how harsh and brutal the UK was in the 14-15th centuries. Many countries in Africa and the Middle East are barely out of their own medieval periods.

It will take generations in these backward countries such as Afghanistan and Pakistan to embrace true social change.

Think of the periods in the West when religion dictated political policy. The Islamic world is still stuck there.
Until they go through their own renaissance and ‘age of reason’ they will act like third world medieval men and women, with all the brutality and lack of reasoning that we in the West exhibited in the Middle Ages.

My original point is that Craig Oliver and his ilk might try and show a bit less glee when the Taliban have a success, and try and be a bit more positive about the good things the Canadian Forces are achieving in a stone-age society that has been racked by decades of tribal in-fighting.

Not much better? Just as bad if not worse in my opinion. Afterall the taliban had nobody but decades of war to guide them whereas our biys are all allegedly western oriented and policed by us.

Your points about how barabaric we were historically are accurate and on point. The problem is that we took centuries to work thorugh them changing rapidly. We didn't have a greater power force it on us which is exactly why our efforts will fail.

Hell, people in our society thought the changes surrounding the 70s womens lib movement went to fast and just now we see postings about how gay rights with regard to marriage is moving to fast.

They need to change but they need to change at their pace no different them me expecting a 2 year old child to suddenly act like a 10 year old child instantly.

Aside from all this is our guilt at creating this situation, a fact lost on far to many.

Hell, we even played up the jihad angle because we wanted to give the USSR its Vietnam so badly.

We can't just dismiss that and yet we are.

[ridenrain]

The leader of Afghanistan hs the right to say that.
The leader of a NATO country who is fighting and bleeding troops has the right to say it.
The leader of an opposition party in Canada has no right to threaten or dictate the policy of foreign countries.

Again: Dion was talking in French to a Quebec group and never meant that to be reported in english, let alone in Pakistan. Again proof that the fight they believed in 3 years ago and the lives lost dosen't matter when there's an election to win.

You're simply hiding behind the vocabulary because you've been proven wrong again, and all you're dodges or red herrings don't help.

[EyeBrock]

Yea, but we are better now Derby. Like Churchill said:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

These tin-pot third-world countries will remain in the dark ages until the rulers of these countries become accountable and their people become free.

I spent 10 years of my life in dodgy shit-holes world wide. I have an educated opinion on what goes on in these places and I'm glad I live in Canada.

These people are very different to us and comparing values is a moot point.

We are there now because we think it's the right thing to do. Have we done the wrong thing in the past? Absolutely but as a democracy we have held the wrong-doers accountable. That won't happen in Afghanistan/Iran/Pakistan for quite a few more decades.

[DerbyX]

ridenrain ridenrain:

The leader of Afghanistan hs the right to say that.
The leader of a NATO country who is fighting and bleeding troops has the right to say it.
The leader of an opposition party in Canada has no right to threaten or dictate the policy of foreign countries.

Again: Dion was talking in French to a Quebec group and never meant that to be reported in english, let alone in Pakistan. Again proof that the fight they believed in 3 years ago and the lives lost dosen't matter when there's an election to win.

You're simply hiding behind the vocabulary because you've been proven wrong again, and all you're dodges or red herrings don't help.

EDIT BY MOD
Language!!

[ridenrain]

Who should Pakistan listen to more, the elected president of Afghanistan or some no one with no power in a foreign country?

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yea, but we are better now Derby. Like Churchill said:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

These tin-pot third-world countries will remain in the dark ages until the rulers of these countries become accountable and their people become free.

I spent 10 years of my life in dodgy shit-holes world wide. I have an educated opinion on what goes on in these places and I'm glad I live in Canada.

These people are very different to us and comparing values is a moot point.

We are there now because we think it's the right thing to do. Have we done the wrong thing in the past? Absolutely but as a democracy we have held the wrong-doers accountable. That won't happen in Afghanistan/Iran/Pakistan for quite a few more decades.

I've got multiple threads ongoing so if I'm slow in responding its not because I don't think you aren't the dogs bolloxs.

(I can only imagine what it was like in england when they failed to qualify for euro 08).

That aside, lets get down to brass tacks.

We are better yes (some would argue).

But we achieved it without having force thrown against us. The US achieved a country through rebellion, Canada through growth yet stand as comperable nations.

As I posted to Scape I think we could have achieved everything we have now without the violent overthrow and providing the means for them to grow is what will help it succeed.

All we have done is simply let them blame us for the very violence their society does, put too many peoples backs against the wall and simply not allow for any way to move forward without issuing ultimatiums.

You're ex-english. Even when England was in the wrong they would never back down in the face of threats of violence and thats just whats happening here.

The taliban won't negotiate at gunpoint and won't give up the fight. They can rearm and resupply at will from abroad and count on more internal support then we want to admit.

Now Karzai, who broke from the taliban because he wanted ties with india instead of pakistan, threatens to expand a war he can't win at home which would see the enemy multiply.

Its a big clusterfuck and quite frankly the only reason I see so many people supporting it is because we get to see Canadians troops in action, in combat, and fighting what we think is the right fight.

Thats just not true though.

[ridenrain]

Looks like the Afghan version of "Brother, where art thou" isn't going so well.

[Regina]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Its a big clusterfuck and quite frankly the only reason I see so many people supporting it is because we get to see Canadians troops in action, in combat, and fighting what we think is the right fight.

Thats just not true though.

Actually it is. I was at a function last weekend where two Canadian soldiers spoke on the mission. They had both done two tours and said there was a 10 fold improvement from their first tour till the last. They said things aren't perfect yet but are getting there and the worst thing NATO could do was to leave it unfinished. Also that it will take many years but abandonment would not be the right thing to do. They were very frank with their information and would answer any question asked. They believe we are doing the right thing for the right reasons.

[DerbyX]

Regina Regina:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Its a big clusterfuck and quite frankly the only reason I see so many people supporting it is because we get to see Canadians troops in action, in combat, and fighting what we think is the right fight.

Thats just not true though.

Actually it is. I was at a function last weekend where two Canadian soldiers spoke on the mission. They had both done two tours and said there was a 10 fold improvement from their first tour till the last. They said things aren't perfect yet but are getting there and the worst thing NATO could do was to leave it unfinished. Also that it will take many years but abandonment would not be the right thing to do. They were very frank with their information and would answer any question asked. They believe we are doing the right thing for the right reasons.

The right thing does not include invading foreign countries even if we have good intentions.

We can pat ourselves on the back all we want and point to infrastructure built as somehow validating our presence there but so what? The USSR did the same thing and we could have achieved virutally everything we achieved now without resorting to using military force.

We have more then enough reports of the corruption rampant throughout the gov't we installed and know we hear about our soldiers being told to ignore the raping of little boys so that we can avoid confrontation and thats just plain wrong.

Good intentions don't excuse what we did to get there especially in light of other facts and history.

The soldiers over there may believe they are doing the right thing for the right reasons but then again so does everybody else. As I posted to Scape, we are acting like it was the taliban responsible for the brutality rather then a product of it.

Who gave us the authority to do anything we have done over there? Simply believing we are right doesn't mean we are.

[Regina]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The right thing does not include invading foreign countries even if we have good intentions.

We can pat ourselves on the back all we want and point to infrastructure built as somehow validating our presence there but so what? The USSR did the same thing and we could have achieved virutally everything we achieved now without resorting to using military force.

We have more then enough reports of the corruption rampant throughout the gov't we installed and know we hear about our soldiers being told to ignore the raping of little boys so that we can avoid confrontation and thats just plain wrong.

Good intentions don't excuse what we did to get there especially in light of other facts and history.

The soldiers over there may believe they are doing the right thing for the right reasons but then again so does everybody else. As I posted to Scape, we are acting like it was the taliban responsible for the brutality rather then a product of it.

Who gave us the authority to do anything we have done over there? Simply believing we are right doesn't mean we are.

Honestly.......has someone whacked you up the side of the head with a big stupid stick?

You take one or two points or claimed incidences and paint them as wide spread. You generalise and overstate your points while ignoring anything that doesn't suit you. Your last statement is proof enough that you lack the knowledge to participate in this debate.

[DerbyX]

Regina Regina:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The right thing does not include invading foreign countries even if we have good intentions.

We can pat ourselves on the back all we want and point to infrastructure built as somehow validating our presence there but so what? The USSR did the same thing and we could have achieved virutally everything we achieved now without resorting to using military force.

We have more then enough reports of the corruption rampant throughout the gov't we installed and know we hear about our soldiers being told to ignore the raping of little boys so that we can avoid confrontation and thats just plain wrong.

Good intentions don't excuse what we did to get there especially in light of other facts and history.

The soldiers over there may believe they are doing the right thing for the right reasons but then again so does everybody else. As I posted to Scape, we are acting like it was the taliban responsible for the brutality rather then a product of it.

Who gave us the authority to do anything we have done over there? Simply believing we are right doesn't mean we are.

Honestly.......has someone whacked you up the side of the head with a big stupid stick?

You take one or two points or claimed incidences and paint them as wide spread. You generalise and overstate your points while ignoring anything that doesn't suit you. Your last statement is proof enough that you lack the knowledge to participate in this debate.

Wow, what a helpful little comment. I hope your post doesn't get deleted like Mustang1s did or you don't hide behind being a moderator if you will make disparaging little comments like this.

You guys think just because Canada's got its little fischer-price diplomacy kit that we know whats best for everybody and have the moral authority to force it on others.

To many times we keep getting told we don't understand whats really going on and too many times we get proven wrong but along comes people like you who point to our "good intentions" of proof positive of our superior abilities.

BTW, claiming somebody lacks the neccessary knowledge and so you can't possible debate them is standard forum speak for "I can't actually debate you on the topic so I'll just imply you don't know whats going on and run away".

Grow up and start acting like a moderator or turn in your badge if you want to post insulting nonesense like that.

[ridenrain]

So much for you're wonderful debate style.
Obdurate, deflect deny..

[RUEZ]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Grow up and start acting like a moderator or turn in your badge if you want to post insulting nonesense like that.

Uh Oh.

[DerbyX]

Wow, 2 pathetic cheerleaders with the same post. What a catch.

I love how you 2 idiots failed to realize the nature of the response I replied to and that you would be crying about the same thing if I had made that post.

[RUEZ]