[Thanos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

When you exalt BP to some apotheosis of Evil, when you focus the combined rage of America at one convenient target, you miss some important lessons, I think. This might well have been any other oil company in the region. The energy companies have simply circumvented a voluminous regulatory regime, like a creek goes around a large boulder that falls in its course. The regulators grew complacent, encouraged by political tide of less government, moving over for industry and "Drill Baby Drill."

The regulatory regime already in place was expensive and created the illusion of comptetence. But it was just a paper tiger; the industry paid their dues with massive required reports, and the Minierals Management Service handed out "categorical exclusions" like candy. The taxpayer was paying a lot for this regualtory regime, but was not getting much in return.

And at the bottom of all of this are the abiding myths that North Americans have about energy--"energy independence"; the "Dances with Wolves" mentality that, without oil, we would all frolic happily in the meadows; the denial of the essentiality of oil for our prosperity. The pablum fed the American people by left and right wing demagogues just adds to the general ignorance of the issue. At the end of the day, everyone hates energy companies and the government a little more, pats himself on the back, and goes back to living in his dreamworld.

This accident was very forseeable. In the business it's known as a "low-probability, high-consequence" event. Repeat a given experiment (drilling) enough times and eventually you will get your low-probability event. The wheel happened to stop at BP, but it might just as well have been Exxon or Shell.

Not sure where you're going with this. I was the first one here to suggest that it wasn't an "accident" in the most-understood meaning of the word, considering that BP's reputation and approach to safety and environmental regulations is seen (even in the industry itself) as a complete joke. I'd outlaw the use of the word "accident" altogether whenver it comes to any controversy or scandal that's associated with BP. They half-assed it on the procedures and regulations, and fast-tracked the project to save a pitfully small amount of cash, so any suggestion that (as you said) the blow-out wasn't etirely foreseeable can't really be taken seriously. Throw in their relationship with Haliburton (who did work on the concrete and rubber seal portion of the wellhead), and this whole disaster was guaranteed to happen, if not on the Deepwater Horizon then on something else later on down the line. Look up what's known about BP's Atlantis (?)project a couple of hunndred miles away from the Deepwater. If anyone isn't scared to death when reviewing the missing welding records for Atlantis and by BP using the same flawed blow-out preventers and valves that failed on Deepwater, then they ought to have their head examined.

All in all, there's a real reason why this happened on a BP project and not on a Shell or Chevron or even an Exxon one. BP is a malicious corporate entity, one that's been hammered before by the courts and government for hazardous neglect that resulted in loss of life and environmental destruction. In a business full of dirty players, BP is actually much worse than one usually encounters out in the industry. In a religious vein, a sin of omission is still a sin. With BP's track record of nearly endless sins of omission, combined with outright neglect and an overall attitude of near-total disconcern, I'd still say that what occurred is a result of evil, even if it was an unconscious evil rather than one that actively trys to cause death and destruction.

[Bodah]

Proculation Proculation:

Well here in Montreal, around my house, it's all smoke.

I just called 911 and it seems it's forest fires. It's very dense. wtf. Is Laval on fire ?

It's from a Trois Riviere forest fire.

It reached the Ottawa area this morning. I'm a light sleeper the smell of smoke woke me up I thought either my house was on fire or I was having a stroke. Amazing how fast the wind can travel.

Sorry for the hijack.

[Zipperfish]

Thanos Thanos:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

When you exalt BP to some apotheosis of Evil, when you focus the combined rage of America at one convenient target, you miss some important lessons, I think. This might well have been any other oil company in the region. The energy companies have simply circumvented a voluminous regulatory regime, like a creek goes around a large boulder that falls in its course. The regulators grew complacent, encouraged by political tide of less government, moving over for industry and "Drill Baby Drill."

The regulatory regime already in place was expensive and created the illusion of comptetence. But it was just a paper tiger; the industry paid their dues with massive required reports, and the Minierals Management Service handed out "categorical exclusions" like candy. The taxpayer was paying a lot for this regualtory regime, but was not getting much in return.

And at the bottom of all of this are the abiding myths that North Americans have about energy--"energy independence"; the "Dances with Wolves" mentality that, without oil, we would all frolic happily in the meadows; the denial of the essentiality of oil for our prosperity. The pablum fed the American people by left and right wing demagogues just adds to the general ignorance of the issue. At the end of the day, everyone hates energy companies and the government a little more, pats himself on the back, and goes back to living in his dreamworld.

This accident was very forseeable. In the business it's known as a "low-probability, high-consequence" event. Repeat a given experiment (drilling) enough times and eventually you will get your low-probability event. The wheel happened to stop at BP, but it might just as well have been Exxon or Shell.

Not sure where you're going with this. I was the first one here to suggest that it wasn't an "accident" in the most-understood meaning of the word, considering that BP's reputation and approach to safety and environmental regulations is seen (even in the industry itself) as a complete joke. I'd outlaw the use of the word "accident" altogether whenver it comes to any controversy or scandal that's associated with BP. They half-assed it on the procedures and regulations, and fast-tracked the project to save a pitfully small amount of cash, so any suggestion that (as you said) the blow-out wasn't etirely foreseeable can't really be taken seriously. Throw in their relationship with Haliburton (who did work on the concrete and rubber seal portion of the wellhead), and this whole disaster was guaranteed to happen, if not on the Deepwater Horizon then on something else later on down the line. Look up what's known about BP's Atlantis (?)project a couple of hunndred miles away from the Deepwater. If anyone isn't scared to death when reviewing the missing welding records for Atlantis and by BP using the same flawed blow-out preventers and valves that failed on Deepwater, then they ought to have their head examined.

All in all, there's a real reason why this happened on a BP project and not on a Shell or Chevron or even an Exxon one. BP is a malicious corporate entity, one that's been hammered before by the courts and government for hazardous neglect that resulted in loss of life and environmental destruction. In a business full of dirty players, BP is actually much worse than one usually encounters out in the industry. In a religious vein, a sin of omission is still a sin. With BP's track record of nearly endless sins of omission, combined with outright neglect and an overall attitude of near-total disconcern, I'd still say that what occurred is a result of evil, even if it was an unconscious evil rather than one that actively trys to cause death and destruction.

My point is that, as well as an individual failure by BP, this is a systemic failure--from the government, to the politicians, to the media, to the industry, to the people. Sure it's human nature to want to round up a posse and go lynch that Mr. Bean dude in charge of BP. And it would probably be deserved and make everyone feel good too. But it wouldn't solve the problem.

Half the people now screaming that there was a lack of government regualtion of the industry, two months ago would have been sneering at the very idea and decrying "Big Government" and "Obama's Socialist Agenda." That's aprt of the issue.

[Public_Domain]

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Benn Benn:

They made 6 Billion Net in the first 1/4 of this year and so far has not even spent a billion on clean up. Bankruptcy is not that close yet.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_interne ... esults.pdf (income statement on page 7)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 138938.ece

Well, according to the news ticker, BP's stock just did a nice plummet.

Here's the other problem. They made 6 billion net the 1st quarter but a quarter is 3 months. It's pretty much cost 'em a billion so far just for a month's worth of effort. By simple extrapolation that could easily become 3 billion over 3 months, PLUS the cost of drilling this relief well. Yeah, their profits are going to take a SHIT kicking. Maybe not bankrupt, but they are going to be hurting for a while.

[Thanos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

My point is that, as well as an individual failure by BP, this is a systemic failure--from the government, to the politicians, to the media, to the industry, to the people. Sure it's human nature to want to round up a posse and go lynch that Mr. Bean dude in charge of BP. And it would probably be deserved and make everyone feel good too. But it wouldn't solve the problem.

Half the people now screaming that there was a lack of government regualtion of the industry, two months ago would have been sneering at the very idea and decrying "Big Government" and "Obama's Socialist Agenda." That's aprt of the issue.

I have no disagreement with you at all. The American political right-wing that hates any regulation over business and does it's best to undermine the efficieny of government at every chance they get are, in the bigger picture, far more to blame than BP is on this. BP and the others just greased enough of their palms and gave out enough free rounds of golf to ensure that they'd get their way. If it was up to me I'd have every damn right-winger in the US right now, from the Palin bitch to Beck to Boehner to Breitbart out on the beaches right now picking up dead wildlife. Maybe if they had to spend some tiem face-to-face with the actual consequnces of their idiotic and anti-human ideology they'd wake up a bit and stop pushing the craziness so fucking hard.

Modern American conservatives: we'll zealously regulate your homosexuals for you because Jeebus tells us to. But regulate big business? Fugeddaboudit.

[Brenda]

$1:

Modern American conservatives: we'll zealously regulate your homosexuals for you because Jeebus tells us to. But regulate big business? Fugeddaboudit.

Or healthcare for everyone.

[Public_Domain]

[rickc]

Thanos Thanos:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

My point is that, as well as an individual failure by BP, this is a systemic failure--from the government, to the politicians, to the media, to the industry, to the people. Sure it's human nature to want to round up a posse and go lynch that Mr. Bean dude in charge of BP. And it would probably be deserved and make everyone feel good too. But it wouldn't solve the problem.

Half the people now screaming that there was a lack of government regualtion of the industry, two months ago would have been sneering at the very idea and decrying "Big Government" and "Obama's Socialist Agenda." That's aprt of the issue.

I have no disagreement with you at all. The American political right-wing that hates any regulation over business and does it's best to undermine the efficieny of government at every chance they get are, in the bigger picture, far more to blame than BP is on this. BP and the others just greased enough of their palms and gave out enough free rounds of golf to ensure that they'd get their way. If it was up to me I'd have every damn right-winger in the US right now, from the Palin bitch to Beck to Boehner to Breitbart out on the beaches right now picking up dead wildlife. Maybe if they had to spend some tiem face-to-face with the actual consequnces of their idiotic and anti-human ideology they'd wake up a bit and stop pushing the craziness so fucking hard.

Modern American conservatives: we'll zealously regulate your homosexuals for you because Jeebus tells us to. But regulate big business? Fugeddaboudit.

How can you blame this disaster on the American right wing? Obama has been running the show for 17 months now.He also has enjoyed a majority in both the house and senate.A large enough majority to ram home his health care bill against the will of the majority of the American people.But that is a topic for another thread.Obama can run the government any way he sees fit.There isn't a damn thing the right wing can do about it at the present time.A couple of years ago during the campaign [when the economy was still good] all I heard from candidate Obama was how HE voted against the war in Iraq.Hillary had voted for it.Obama was going to END the war! He was a one trick pony as a candidate.Well here we are 17 months after he took office and our boys are still coming home in body bags.

Fact or fiction:Obama is the largest recipient of money from BP? Every article that I have come across states that in fact he IS! I will admit it is getting harder to seperate the truth from the bullshit these days with all the spin.Correct me if I am wrong.Post a link showing a politician getting more cash from BP.I can't find one.The media is reporting that BP was a finalist to receive a federal award for outstanding safety and polution prevention.An award being presented by the Obama administration.BP was one of three companys in the finals.The winner has already been chosen.Now the Obama administration does not want to present or even talk about the award.I wonder why?

Why is Carville [a lifelong democrat] so angry at the Obama adminisration? Mabey it is because he lives in the delta,and does not see the Obama admin doing a damn thing to help.You are left wing.I can respect that.I disagree,but I can respect it.You want to blame lax regulations on the part of the U.S. government for this disaster,be my guest.Just lay the flaming shitbag at the right doorstep.You know that big white house in D.C. you Canadians like to torch so much? That would be the place.

[llama66]

We only torched the white house once.

To say that the oil spill is somehow Obama's fault is pure bullshit, its BP cutting corners, in the last 3 years BP has had 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, thats not Obama's fault, its the piss poor management on the part of BP, by comparison Exxon had one safety violation in the same period. I have to agree with the people who say this is, at least in part, due to de-regulation by previous administrations, the only thing Obama is guilty of, in my mind, is attempting to appease big business, with allowing off shore drilling.

[rickc]

llama66 llama66:

We only torched the white house once.

To say that the oil spill is somehow Obama's fault is pure bullshit, its BP cutting corners, in the last 3 years BP has had 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, thats not Obama's fault, its the piss poor management on the part of BP, by comparison Exxon had one safety violation in the same period. I have to agree with the people who say this is, at least in part, due to de-regulation by previous administrations, the only thing Obama is guilty of, in my mind, is attempting to appease big business, with allowing off shore drilling.

Hey llama66,you want to blame BP? Good because I agree!I was responding to a post blaming the American right wing.I AM the American right wing!For that I do not apologize.I will go to my grave being a right winger!I was mearly retorting how this disaster was the fault of the American right.We have not been in power for over 17 months now.If any government official is to blame,put it on the Obama administration.You think that BP is to blame? I'm all on that bandwagon,and than some.

I would like to edit this post.To paraphrase the Atttorny General of CT......I misspoke! I stated that as a right winger we have not been in power for over 17 months.Seeing as how W was not a real right winger......it has been a lot longer than 17 months.

[tritium]

British Polluter

Anyone buy BP stocks, they are dirt cheap.

[Thanos]

rickc rickc:

llama66 llama66:

We only torched the white house once.

To say that the oil spill is somehow Obama's fault is pure bullshit, its BP cutting corners, in the last 3 years BP has had 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, thats not Obama's fault, its the piss poor management on the part of BP, by comparison Exxon had one safety violation in the same period. I have to agree with the people who say this is, at least in part, due to de-regulation by previous administrations, the only thing Obama is guilty of, in my mind, is attempting to appease big business, with allowing off shore drilling.

Hey llama66,you want to blame BP? Good because I agree!I was responding to a post blaming the American right wing.I AM the American right wing!For that I do not apologize.I will go to my grave being a right winger!I was mearly retorting how this disaster was the fault of the American right.We have not been in power for over 17 months now.If any government official is to blame,put it on the Obama administration.You think that BP is to blame? I'm all on that bandwagon,and than some.

I would like to edit this post.To paraphrase the Atttorny General of CT......I misspoke! I stated that as a right winger we have not been in power for over 17 months.Seeing as how W was not a real right winger......it has been a lot longer than 17 months.

1) Drill, baby, drill, regardless of any future consequences.

2) Regulations by government over business are bad, Communistic, and anti-American. Business is always right and can always be trusted to regulate itself.

3) Government is always bad, Bad, BAD. Business is always good, Good, GOOD. And there is no grey area in-between.

All three concepts are at the very heart of of what passes for American conservative philosophy right now. Don't be so droll as to pretend that they aren't.

[rickc]

Thanos Thanos:

rickc rickc:

llama66 llama66:

We only torched the white house once.

To say that the oil spill is somehow Obama's fault is pure bullshit, its BP cutting corners, in the last 3 years BP has had 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, thats not Obama's fault, its the piss poor management on the part of BP, by comparison Exxon had one safety violation in the same period. I have to agree with the people who say this is, at least in part, due to de-regulation by previous administrations, the only thing Obama is guilty of, in my mind, is attempting to appease big business, with allowing off shore drilling.

Hey llama66,you want to blame BP? Good because I agree!I was responding to a post blaming the American right wing.I AM the American right wing!For that I do not apologize.I will go to my grave being a right winger!I was mearly retorting how this disaster was the fault of the American right.We have not been in power for over 17 months now.If any government official is to blame,put it on the Obama administration.You think that BP is to blame? I'm all on that bandwagon,and than some.

I would like to edit this post.To paraphrase the Atttorny General of CT......I misspoke! I stated that as a right winger we have not been in power for over 17 months.Seeing as how W was not a real right winger......it has been a lot longer than 17 months.

1) Drill, baby, drill, regardless of any future consequences.

2) Regulations by government over business are bad, Communistic, and anti-American. Business is always right and can always be trusted to regulate itself.

3) Government is always bad, Bad, BAD. Business is always good, Good, GOOD. And there is no grey area in-between.

All three concepts are at the very heart of of what passes for American conservative philosophy right now. Don't be so droll as to pretend that they aren't.

I won't pretend.I am pro business,and I would love to see the federal government be about 90% smaller than it is.That said,there has to some accountability by the people in charge.If an American submarine crashes into a fishing boat killing all aboard,we should not be blaming the Captain who retired 17 months ago.What happened to "the buck stops here"? Obama has done nothing but increase the size of the government,and still we have this disaster.

[Zipperfish]

rickc rickc:

I won't pretend.I am pro business,and I would love to see the federal government be about 90% smaller than it is.That said,there has to some accountability by the people in charge.If an American submarine crashes into a fishing boat killing all aboard,we should not be blaming the Captain who retired 17 months ago.What happened to "the buck stops here"? Obama has done nothing but increase the size of the government,and still we have this disaster.

Obama opened up new areas to offshore drilling (off Virginia and in the Arctic). Originally he supported a continued moratorium on expansion, but changed his mind, perhaps as a strategic concession to the Republicans to get some movement on his climate bill.