[DrCaleb]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I beg to differ. RT is the voice of Moskau, and the Ukraine is a separate and distinct country and (to be terse) it's none of their fucking business how ex-pats in another country are treated and none of their fucking business how Ukraine deals with it's own people in it's own borders. I was going to say 'except for human rights abuses' but to hold Moskau to that that standard would be ironic.

Moskau's only interest here is taking back the Ukrainian food production and Black Sea oil and gas that Russia doesn't already own. Their protests fall under the category of 'he doth protest too much'.

Doesn't sound like we really differ. The issue is whether Moscow will continue to send agents to stir up trouble, and whether they'll invide. It looks like they won't. That's good.

I don't think they'll invade, but I do think they will send agents and weapons to stir up trouble and get Ukraine to look like it's voting to succeed. Invasion has many forms.

Why else go through all the trouble of making your own voting lists, stuffing ballot boxes and rigging elections if you don't want the territory? Now that they 'have' Crimea, they still need land access to the territory to properly pillage it.

andyt andyt:

So Russia still does want to swallow up Ukraine, is that what you're saying? Why then are the backing off?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And who said they are backing off? I see no reports that any troops are leaving the 'exercise' area along the Ukraine border.

Putin doesn't care what the Majority wants, otherwise he'd encourage free and fair elections. He cares what he can get away with.

[andyt]

Well, people are pointing out that he may not want Ukraine, just wants to make sure it doesn't fall into the Western orbit to keep NATO off his doorstep. Swallowing Ukraine may not go down all that well, and then there he is, back on NATO's doorstep. So he wants it more as a buffer. Not good for Ukraine being caught in the middle, of course.

[andyt]

I already posted this, but probably to lost in all the shit:

$1:

Russia may achieve goals without Ukraine invasion: NATO commander

NATO's top military commander in Europe said on Monday he no longer thought regular Russian troops would enter eastern Ukraine, predicting Moscow could achieve its goals through the unconventional forces stirring up trouble there.

Breedlove said that until a week ago, he thought the most likely military response from Russia would be to send in troops to southern Ukraine and secure a land bridge to the peninsula of Crimea — which voted in March to join Russia — before possibly pushing on toward the Black Sea port of Odesa and then farther west toward Moldova.

"Today I would tell you I don't think that's the most likely course of action ... I think now that Putin may be able to accomplish his objectives in eastern Ukraine and never go across the border with his forces," he said.

"Now I think probably the most likely course of action is that he will continue doing what he's doing — discrediting the government, creating unrest, trying to set the stage for a separatist movement," and that would make it easier to cement Moscow's military and economic hold on eastern Ukraine, Breedlove added.

"In that case, I think it's the most troublesome for NATO because if the forces do not come across the border, my guess is that many will want to try to quickly go back to business as usual, and I, for one, do not believe annexing Crimea is business as usual."

[andyt]

$1:

Germany's foreign minister tried to broker a quick launch of talks between Ukraine's central government in Kyiv and the pro-Russia separatists who declared independence a day ago in two eastern regions.


Speaking at Kyiv's main airport, envoy Frank-Walter Steinmeier said Germany supports Ukraine's efforts to arrange for a dialogue between the central government and its opponents in the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions that form the nation's industrial heartland.

The Kremlin has shown no immediate intentions of annexing eastern Ukraine the way it did the Crimean Peninsula in March. Instead, Moscow has pushed for talks between Ukraine's central government and eastern regions on Ukraine's future — a cautious stance suggesting that Russia prefers a political rather than a military solution to its worst standoff with the West since the Cold War.

The OSCE plan presented Monday by Swiss President Didier Burkhalter calls on all sides to refrain from violence and urges immediate amnesty for those involved in the unrest, talks on decentralization and the status of the Russian language. Burkhalter said the OSCE will set up rapid response teams to quickly investigate all acts of violence.

He said the plan envisages a quick launch of high-level round tables across the country bringing together national lawmakers and representatives of the central government and the regions.

Serhiy Taruta, the Kyiv-appointed governor of the Donetsk region, on Tuesday urged the Ukrainian parliament to authorize a referendum on June 15 that could help the regions gain more powers while remaining part of Ukraine.

While he dismissed the vote held by pro-Russian protesters on Sunday as an "opinion poll," Taruta said everyone in Ukraine, including those in the rebellious east, "should hear answers to the questions that they are concerned about."

Taruta said key issues include possibly devolving more powers to local authorities, creating municipal police forces and a broader use of languages other than Ukrainian.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

So Russia still does want to swallow up Ukraine, is that what you're saying? Why then are they backing off?

The Russians are most definitely NOT backing off. NATO surveillance has not seen any reduction in Russian troops, armor, or materiel that's been massed on the Russia-Ukraine border or on the Belarus-Ukraine border.

Think if it this way, if I point a gun at you and tell you I'm not pointing it at you would you think I was backing off?

[DrCaleb]

$1:

Ukraine crisis: 6 soldiers killed in ambush by insurgents
Diplomat hopes to mediate dispute between Ukraine and foes after secession votes in eastern regions

The Ukrainian defence ministry says six servicemen have been ambushed and killed and eight others wounded in the country's restive east.

The defence ministry said the troops were attacked outside the town of Kramatorsk on Tuesday afternoon by at least 30 insurgents who were using grenade launchers and automatic weapons.

Pro-Russia insurgents have been capturing government buildings and controlling towns and cities across eastern Ukraine for a month now. Two eastern regions — Donetsk and Luhansk — declared independence on Monday.

The city is located about 100 kilometres north of Donetsk, where conflict between pro-Russian separatists and other Ukrainians has been common.

Earlier Tuesday Germany's foreign minister tried to broker a quick launch of talks between Ukraine's central government in Kyiv and the pro-Russia separatists who declared independence a day ago in two eastern regions.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-cr ... -1.2634481

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

So Russia still does want to swallow up Ukraine, is that what you're saying? Why then are they backing off?

The Russians are most definitely NOT backing off. NATO surveillance has not seen any reduction in Russian troops, armor, or materiel that's been massed on the Russia-Ukraine border or on the Belarus-Ukraine border.

Think if it this way, if I point a gun at you and tell you I'm not pointing it at you would you think I was backing off?

Well it depends, are other people telling him that you are backing off?

[Regina]

This will take the next 100 years to sort out. It will get much more nasty too.

[PostFactum]

So today:
1. 54 terrorists killed by Ukrainian forces near Slovyansk, 6 Ukrainian soldiers dead.
2. Inhabitants of Slovyansk started leaving the city.
3. Grivnya falls in compare to US dollar.
4. "Mayor" of separatists was injured today, they say that someone was trying to kill him.
5. Lugansk and Donezk republics confirmed their own "independance act".

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Well, people are pointing out that he may not want Ukraine, just wants to make sure it doesn't fall into the Western orbit to keep NATO off his doorstep. Swallowing Ukraine may not go down all that well, and then there he is, back on NATO's doorstep. So he wants it more as a buffer. Not good for Ukraine being caught in the middle, of course.

He doesn't care about Ukraine, he needs weak neighbor. I give 20% that Putin will cross border. If he will, he's really mad, it's necessary to switch him off as soon as possible.

[Winnipegger]

From the same CBC article...

$1:

Serhiy Taruta, the Kyiv-appointed governor of the Donetsk region, on Tuesday urged the Ukrainian parliament to authorize a referendum on June 15 that could help the regions gain more powers while remaining part of Ukraine.

While he dismissed the vote held by pro-Russian protesters on Sunday as an "opinion poll," Taruta said everyone in Ukraine, including those in the rebellious east, "should hear answers to the questions that they are concerned about."

Taruta said key issues include possibly devolving more powers to local authorities, creating municipal police forces and a broader use of languages other than Ukrainian.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

From the same CBC article...

$1:

Serhiy Taruta, the Kyiv-appointed governor of the Donetsk region, on Tuesday urged the Ukrainian parliament to authorize a referendum on June 15 that could help the regions gain more powers while remaining part of Ukraine.

While he dismissed the vote held by pro-Russian protesters on Sunday as an "opinion poll," Taruta said everyone in Ukraine, including those in the rebellious east, "should hear answers to the questions that they are concerned about."

Taruta said key issues include possibly devolving more powers to local authorities, creating municipal police forces and a broader use of languages other than Ukrainian.

Prostitute is doing blowjob, Moscow pay - he works. Zariow is the same prostitute, and I think that more, this one even gives ass.

[andyt]

I think this is the piece that's often missed here: Serhiy Taruta, the Kyiv-appointed governor of the Donetsk region, on Tuesday urged the Ukrainian parliament to authorize a referendum on June 15 that could help the regions gain more powers while remaining part of Ukraine.

While he dismissed the vote held by pro-Russian protesters on Sunday as an "opinion poll," Taruta said everyone in Ukraine, including those in the rebellious east, "should hear answers to the questions that they are concerned about."

Taruta said key issues include possibly devolving more powers to local authorities, creating municipal police forces and a broader use of languages other than Ukrainian.[/quote]

If even Kyiv is seeing this, maybe they'll be able to pull the situation out of the fire. Russia is not inciting the insurgents as much as it was, Kyiv finally woke up and started confronting the insurgents militarily (ignoring the pleas of PF not to do so) and it seems that Kyiv does seem to have have recognition that it has to respond to the wishes of the people in the East. Maybe they can talk talk talk rather than war war war themselves to a resolution.

[DrCaleb]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

From the same CBC article...

$1:

Taruta said key issues include possibly devolving more powers to local authorities, creating municipal police forces and a broader use of languages other than Ukrainian.

So, there will just be another level of government to bribe, and they may not speak your language. Not much of a positive change.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

If even Kyiv is seeing this, maybe they'll be able to pull the situation out of the fire. Russia is not inciting the insurgents as much as it was, Kyiv finally woke up and started confronting the insurgents militarily (ignoring the pleas of PF not to do so) and it seems that Kyiv does seem to have have recognition that it has to respond to the wishes of the people in the East. Maybe they can talk talk talk rather than war war war themselves to a resolution.

It's already in fire.