[N_Fiddledog]

Some do doubt the figures in that article though. Wanna see a right wing blogger respond to it? Probably not, but here it is anyway...

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2 ... ow-is.html

Here's a taste...

$1:

Of course this propaganda designed as "news" doesn't tell us how they came to this absurd conclusion. We can only figure they simply took the amount of tax revenue taken in by federal, state and local governments and divided it by the total population. Seriously, how on earth they can possibly tell me I'm paying 9.2% of my income when I have eyes and can actually read my paycheck and tax return?

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Well, with 8 trillion in debt, much of it added during the Bush years when things were booming, but spending way outpaced taxes, you bet there will have to be higher taxes. There just aren't enough govt programs to cut unless the govt does get it's hands on people's medicare and social security. Good luck with all that.

Obamacare has increased the size and cost of Medicare by around $1 trillion per year to the Federal government and around $100 billion a year to the states.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

Well, with 8 trillion in debt, much of it added during the Bush years when things were booming, but spending way outpaced taxes, you bet there will have to be higher taxes. There just aren't enough govt programs to cut unless the govt does get it's hands on people's medicare and social security. Good luck with all that.

Obamacare has increased the size and cost of Medicare by around $1 trillion per year to the Federal government and around $100 billion a year to the states.

I'll take Lemmy's word for it that it has also resulted in savings of 1.3 trillion, so there's a net benefit.

[andyt]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Some do doubt the figures in that article though. Wanna see a right wing blogger respond to it? Probably not, but here it is anyway...

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2 ... ow-is.html

Here's a taste...

$1:

Of course this propaganda designed as "news" doesn't tell us how they came to this absurd conclusion. We can only figure they simply took the amount of tax revenue taken in by federal, state and local governments and divided it by the total population. Seriously, how on earth they can possibly tell me I'm paying 9.2% of my income when I have eyes and can actually read my paycheck and tax return?

Course he's not paying 9.2% - he's likely in a higher tax bracket. But the report compared apples to apples. They likely did take total income, tax revenues and population figures, but they did that across the board, not just for the recent figures.

These figures come from the Bureau of Economic Analysis - ie a govt agency. It's not some liberal playing around with statistics, it's govt info that's been kept since the 1950's.

Probably included in those figures are the super high income earners who manage to pay very little tax - that's going to skew the figures some.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

I'll take Lemmy's word for it that it has also resulted in savings of 1.3 trillion, so there's a net benefit.

It hasn't resulted in *any* savings as it is not implemented until July 1. But that hasn't prevented the Federal government from asking the 50 states to cough up their share of the money upfront. And for California that's looking to be a $3 billion dollar bill due on July 1. Tennessee and a few other states legislatures are saying they plan to "opt out" and see what happens when they refuse to pay an arbitrary tax to Washington.

[andyt]

So you pay a little now, and save a little later. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

[Brenda]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

I'll take Lemmy's word for it that it has also resulted in savings of 1.3 trillion, so there's a net benefit.

It hasn't resulted in *any* savings as it is not implemented until July 1. But that hasn't prevented the Federal government from asking the 50 states to cough up their share of the money upfront. And for California that's looking to be a $3 billion dollar bill due on July 1. Tennessee and a few other states legislatures are saying they plan to "opt out" and see what happens when they refuse to pay an arbitrary tax to Washington.

At least that is for your own people in your own country. Have you seen what happens in Europe?
(I know, totally off topic, but it just pisses me off to no end what happens there )

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

So you pay a little now, and save a little later. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Right. So you're not aware of the backroom deals built into Obamacare that exempt some states from paying the Fed while the rest pay for everyone?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but with 5 conservatives on the Supreme Court I fully expect Obamacare to go down to defeat as an abuse of the interstate commerce clause.

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

At least that is for your own people in your own country. Have you seen what happens in Europe?
(I know, totally off topic, but it just pisses me off to no end what happens there )

Tell me what you mean by 'what happens in Europe'? I'm interested.

[Brenda]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Brenda Brenda:

At least that is for your own people in your own country. Have you seen what happens in Europe?
(I know, totally off topic, but it just pisses me off to no end what happens there )

Tell me what you mean by 'what happens in Europe'? I'm interested.

The "help" to Greece, that costs the EU taxpayer 110 billion EURO's, to a country that helped themselves be this way, AND has people demonstrating because they have to pay it back, because the government doesn't want people to be paid 14 months per year and have a long weekend every 3 weeks... A country with people who don't want taxes raised, but still have all the good things that helped them become in need in the first place...

Whats next? Spain (which was a disaster in the EU from day 1), Portugal, all the eastern European countries?

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

The "help" to Greece, that costs the EU taxpayer 110 billion EURO's, to a country that helped themselves be this way, AND has people demonstrating because they have to pay it back, because the government doesn't want people to be paid 14 months per year and have a long weekend every 3 weeks... A country with people who don't want taxes raised, but still have all the good things that helped them become in need in the first place...

Whats next? Spain (which was a disaster in the EU from day 1), Portugal, all the eastern European countries?

Greece is demonstrating the failures of socialism writ large. The people have enjoyed themselves at the trough of the public treasury for so long that they now think they have a right to it. And, in a classic expression of socialist attitude, they are so convinced of their rights to a lavish lifestyle that they even believe that the rest of Europe should be made to pay for the layabouts in Greece.
What's sad is how this has made confluence with the rest of the Europeans who are now doing exactly that; ponying up money so the Greeks can continue to enjoy the party.

[Brenda]

The government finally sees the problem, but the people still don't get it.

I wonder what is going to happen when they cannot pay it back within the set time frame. Greece has to pay The Netherlands 5 billion Euro's within 5 years... (The loan of 5 billion means another 312.5 euro's per capita on top of the rest of the EU bullshit)
Funny detail, The Dutch cabinet fell not too long ago, and elections are coming up... Hmmmm... How can they make a decision like this when there is no one governing?

Did I ever mention that the EU is the stupidest invention EVER?

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

The government finally sees the problem, but the people still don't get it.

I wonder what is going to happen when they cannot pay it back within the set time frame. Greece has to pay The Netherlands 5 billion Euro's within 5 years... (The loan of 5 billion means another 312.5 euro's per capita on top of the rest of the EU bullshit)
Funny detail, The Dutch cabinet fell not too long ago, and elections are coming up... Hmmmm... How can they make a decision like this when there is no one governing?

I like how you allow for the possibility that Greece will repay the loan. Very generous of you!

Brenda Brenda:

Did I ever mention that the EU is the stupidest invention EVER?

To you it is. But to me, the EU is France and Germany accomplishing politically and together what neither of them could accomplish militarily and separately: the domination of Europe.

Wisely, the UK is not involved in the Euro and they're also losing their infatuation with the EU.

See, a Greek-initiated collapse of the Euro will be a reason for the EU to establish itself as a strong federal government of Europe and to finally push the nations to the sidelines as mere 'states'. It'll be interesting then, to see if the collapse of the Euro ends the EU or makes it stronger.

[Brenda]

The Benelux should have stayed just what it was... Fuck France, Italy and West Germany

You know, thats what I am so afraid of. That the EU gets a government with so much influence the countries wont be countries anymore, and that the EU becomes like the USA. There is too much history and too much difference between the countries (financially, historically, culturally) to be one country...

[martin14]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

To you it is. But to me, the EU is France and Germany accomplishing politically and together what neither of them could accomplish militarily and separately: the domination of Europe.

Wisely, the UK is not involved in the Euro and they're also losing their infatuation with the EU.

See, a Greek-initiated collapse of the Euro will be a reason for the EU to establish itself as a strong federal government of Europe and to finally push the nations to the sidelines as mere 'states'. It'll be interesting then, to see if the collapse of the Euro ends the EU or makes it stronger.

Have to disagree with you here, Bart.

France and Germany dont dominate the EU or its institutions.

If anything, Germany has had to pump so much of of its money,
first into unification, and then into the rest of Europe,

that the flame and sword of Germany is no more.
The flame has been doused, and the sword blunt on the anvil of Brussels
and its love of taking German money and throwing it all over Europe.

The UK loses a lot of influence in Europe by staying out of the Euro,
and they dont dominate in Europe either.


The Euro will not collapse with Greece; it will be hurt by it though.

I have predicted before that the EU will get stronger,
and individual states will become weaker.. slowly, but it will happen.

Another blow to both France and Germany