[RUEZ]

Elvis Elvis:

If Harper deliver on his campaign promises then he would have killed the independence movement's in Québec. But if he doesn't well it will be Game over.

Funny thing is the liberals are claiming they are the only party that will keep Canada united. Seems to me they are the reason it's falling apart.

[Ruserious]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Elvis Elvis:

If Harper deliver on his campaign promises then he would have killed the independence movement's in Québec. But if he doesn't well it will be Game over.

Funny thing is the liberals are claiming they are the only party that will keep Canada united. Seems to me they are the reason it's falling apart.

You must have slept through that whole Meech Lake fiasco eh?

[RUEZ]

Ruserious Ruserious:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Elvis Elvis:

If Harper deliver on his campaign promises then he would have killed the independence movement's in Québec. But if he doesn't well it will be Game over.

Funny thing is the liberals are claiming they are the only party that will keep Canada united. Seems to me they are the reason it's falling apart.

You must have slept through that whole Meech Lake fiasco eh?

Damn liberals living in the past. Let's concentrate on the current government and it's currently fucking up the country.

[Elvis]

Canada is falling appart because the federal government keep governing the country like it's a unitarian state! By spending money in provincial juridiction and dictating how to spend the money the Federal government has defalted on the basic contract that bind Canada together.

But like I said before The conservative will have to walk the talk if they don't it will be game over.

[VitaminC]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Elvis Elvis:

If Harper deliver on his campaign promises then he would have killed the independence movement's in Québec. But if he doesn't well it will be Game over.

Funny thing is the liberals are claiming they are the only party that will keep Canada united. Seems to me they are the reason it's falling apart.

I agree with that. I just wish Harper didn't have all the hard-christian values to go with it.

Harper is the only leader who has a real vision for a united Canada, but at the same time I think he'll facilitate taking charter rights away from Canada. I want to vote for Quebec, but I won't vote for a religious extremist.

[Ruserious]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Ruserious Ruserious:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Elvis Elvis:

If Harper deliver on his campaign promises then he would have killed the independence movement's in Québec. But if he doesn't well it will be Game over.

Funny thing is the liberals are claiming they are the only party that will keep Canada united. Seems to me they are the reason it's falling apart.

You must have slept through that whole Meech Lake fiasco eh?

Damn liberals living in the past. Let's concentrate on the current government and it's currently fucking up the country.

Let's talk about the future government that you'd like to see..

$1:

Voter beware
TORONTO, Jan. 16 /CNW/ - The media and opposition parties in this
Campaign so far have dealt with the colour and side issues and not the
substance of Stephen Harper's vision for Canada.
For over two years Mr. Harper in particular and Messrs. Duceppe and
Layton almost as intensely, have dealt with Ad scam and other serious
allegations against the Liberals - not so much under Mr. Martin, but under an
earlier Liberal Government.
It is right that individuals be brought to justice for any such wrong
doings.
Even Mr. Martin agrees with that. In fact he established the Gomery
Commission to look into such matters after Auditor General Sheila Fraser
alerted the Nation to the problem. Mr. Gomery has brought out his findings and
on February 1st this year he intends to bring in recommendations to ensure
such crimes will not happen again.
Unfortunately, the Liberal government was defeated by the Opposition and
the Canadian public is being asked to vote without having the benefit of
Mr. Gomery's final report.
So be it.
But we find up to now in the election campaign the substantive issues
which should be before the Nation have not been debated.
Mr. Harper's plans for Canada, which he has stated since June 1994, have
not once been an issue.
Those plans call for the greatest reorganization of our federation since
confederation.
It is strange that Canadian political events since 1994 have been treated
so differently by the press and commentators. On the one hand the Ad scam type
of stories which occurred mainly in the mid 1990's have received intense
coverage for the last two (2) years not withstanding the fact they were mostly
allegations or rumours such as the recent Income Trust story. On the other
hand Mr. Harper's concrete statements on the future of Canada made repeatedly
over the same decade have had no or at least scant coverage.
For example, in 1995 Mr. Harper then the Unity Critic for the Reform
Party under Mr. Preston Manning unveiled a 20 point program for a "New
Confederation" which was also referred to as "New Federalism". It was
published in Calgary not Ottawa.
In its magnitude the New Federalism called for much more change than
Meech Lake, the Charlottetown Accord and the Calgary Declaration all put
together. Those approaches were in the case of Meech Lake and Charlottetown
voted down by the Canadian public while the Calgary Declaration just died.
At the time of his presentation of his New Confederation proposals,
Mr. Harper said "they simply require a federal government that is willing to
act." That is still his view.
Recently he stated, "I don't think my fundamental beliefs have changed in
a decade."
Given a mandate he intends to institute most if not all of his 20 point
program which he now calls Open Federalism.
These 1995 "changes" Mr. Harper stated "will assert the autonomy of all
provinces and the power of the people well into the future." Many of Canada's
powers and revenue sources would be decentralized, he said. Then he added key
federal powers would be retained "to maintain a common economic space,
eliminate internal trade barriers, create and coordinate important areas of
economic regulation and represent Canada effectively in international trade
negotiations, defence and foreign affairs."
It would be a type of sovereignty association within Canada for all
provinces, not just Quebec.
The essence of his proposals were reflected as Part 'D' in the
Conservative Party of Canada Policy Declaration passed last March in Montreal.

It referred to an "Open Federalism" that bound the Party and every
Conservative Member to:

"1) Restore the constitutional balance between the federal and provincial
and territorial governments.

2) Ensure that the use of the federal spending power in provincial
jurisdictions is limited, authorizing the provinces to use the opting
out formula with full compensation if they want to opt out of a new
or modified federal program, in areas of shared or exclusive
jurisdiction.

3) Consider reforming Canadian federalism, taking into account:
(a) the need to consolidate Québec's position within the Canadian
federation;
(b) the need to alleviate the alienation felt by the citizens of the
West.

4) Fix in collaboration with the provinces, the problem of fiscal
imbalance by increasing the amounts allocated to provincial
transfers, by reducing taxes or by transferring tax points to the
province."

Mr. Harper's current promise to reduce the GST by 2 points is an example
of his intention to take funds away from the federal government (in this case
$9 Billion) and allow the provinces to pick up the slack.
In his 2006 election platform, released just 11 days before the election,
Mr. Harper touched once again on his "Open Federalism", paraphrasing much of
what he said earlier.
This is the first time in Canadian history that a National political
party has embraced a provincial rights agenda.
Up to now from Sir John A. Macdonald to the present, our Prime Ministers
have always put "Canada First".
Mr. Harper puts Canada Second behind the provinces and territories.
Without doubt Mr. Harper, if given power, will implement his program. He
has consistently referred to the subject in his Alberta firewall letter to
Mr. Klein, Premier of Alberta, in his Belgium Waffle Speech and his more
recent Quebec City Chamber of Commerce remarks.
Even if he has a minority government he can count on the Bloc Québécois
to support his type of Open Federalism. He and Mr. Duceppe repeatedly
demonstrated they could work together in the last Parliament against all other
parties.
Before voting, the Canadian public must seriously question whether they
are willing to follow Mr. Harper blindly into such a reshaping of Canada that
in Mike Harris and Preston Manning's 2005 Fraser Institute Statement entitled
"A Canada Strong and Free" it is proposed to leave the Federal Government with
only "assigned areas of responsibility such as defence, foreign affairs and
ensuring free inter-provincial trade."

Mr. Harper's New Confederation 20 Proposals include:

DECENTRALIZATION OF POWERS

1. Natural Resources
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

2. Manpower Training
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

3. Social Services (including welfare, education and health care)
Change the role of the federal government to foster cooperative
Interprovincial agreements rather than imposing unilateral standards
by withholding transfer payments.

4. Language
Replace the Official Languages Act with a new law, the Regional
Bilingualism Act, that would recognize the demographic and linguistic
realities of Canada and the practices of provincial authorities.

5. Culture
Make provincial governments the primary providers and guardians of
cultural services and primary regulators of cultural industries.

6. Municipal Affairs
Strengthen the role of municipal governments in the delivery of
essential services.

7. Housing
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

8. Tourism
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

9. Sports and Recreation
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

10. Spending Power
Forbid new federal spending programs in provincial jurisdiction.

11. Transfers to the Provinces
Replace federal cash block grants with tax point grants.

12. Charter Challenges
End the Court Challenges program and its tax-funded court challenges
of provincial legislation.

13. Disallowance, Reserve, and Declaratory Powers
Remain dormant.


REFORM OF INSTITUTIONS

14. House of Commons
Permit greater freedom for individual MP's; wider use of referenda,
citizens' initiatives and recall.

15. Senate of Canada
All future appointments to the Senate would be made by means of
elections on the model of the 1989 Alberta Senate selection process.

16. Supreme Court and Judiciary
Future appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada would be made by
the provincial legislatures; all appointments reviewed by elected
Senate.

17. Bank of Canada
Future board appointments made by provincial legislatures. Ottawa
would continue to select the Governor of the Bank.

18. Lieutenant Governors
Appointed by provincial legislatures.

19. Tax, Debt and Expenditure Limitation
Unilaterally amend the Constitution to forbid deficit spending or
rapid spending increases, except when authorized by a national
referendum.

20. Constitutional Referendums
Introduce a motion in the House of Commons that all future
constitutional amendments must be approved by majorities in all
regions of Canada through a referendum.

Asked in a fair referendum to approve these proposals, we doubt if
Canadians would give their support.
In short now is not the time to reconstitute Canada. Provincial
disparities have never been wider. Alberta in 2004 had a gross domestic
product per person of $58,394.00; Prince Edward Island $29,152.00 and Ontario
was second highest at $41,703.00.
In short Mr. Harper must now commit that if he is chosen as Prime
Minister he will not commence to institute his Open Federalism without a
referendum being held where the Canadian people would have to approve the
proposals by an overall majority of Canadians and a majority of the people in
each province.
Mr. Harper must accept he is proposing changes greater than any since the
1860's. At that time there were appropriate conferences, agreements and votes.
So should there be today.
Prior to Confederation there had been dysfunctional governments. A strong
central government was provided for in the BNA Act of 1867. This allowed the
country to be built and prosper certainly up to the time separatism reared its
head in Quebec with the birth of the PQ and then the Bloc Québécois.
The U.S.A. has a much stronger central government then we do. In
Australia there is also a stronger central government than Canada. The
Australians, because they can speak with one voice are currently eclipsing
Canada in world markets while we drift into more decentralization.
Wake Up Canada.

Hon. Sinclair M. Stevens and Dennis Mills.

Sounds like spitting the country to me.

And the end result, Harper gets to build his firewall around Alberta.

[Elvis]

Well you see if The conservative do decentralize Canada in that way and make it a true Confederation then it would be fine for most Quebecer. But I don't think That Canadian would like it. (maybe with the execption to Alberta) But I don't think that it would be necessary to apply this model coast-to-coast. I think Québec could be considere a part of the Canadian Confederation* But other province could choose to be federated or confederated (Province-state).


*A confederation is an association of sovereign states, usually created by treaty but often later adopting a common constitution. Confederations tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defence, foreign affairs, foreign trade, and a common currency, with the central government being required to provide support for all members. A confederation, in modern political terms, is usually limited to a permanent union of sovereign states

[Ruserious]

Elvis Elvis:

Well you see if The conservative do decentralize Canada in that way and make it a true Confederation then it would be fine for most Quebecer. But I don't think That Canadian would like it. (maybe with the execption to Alberta) But I don't think that it would be necessary to apply this model coast-to-coast. I think Québec could be considere a part of the Canadian Confederation* But other province could choose to be federated or confederated (Province-state).


*A confederation is an association of sovereign states, usually created by treaty but often later adopting a common constitution. Confederations tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defence, foreign affairs, foreign trade, and a common currency, with the central government being required to provide support for all members. A confederation, in modern political terms, is usually limited to a permanent union of sovereign states

Therein lies the rub Elvis..

It would cater to Quebec and Alberta's wishes at the expense of the ROC.

Which is why it divides the country...

[Elvis]

Ruserious wrote

$1:

It would cater to Quebec and Alberta's wishes at the expense of the ROC.

Which is why it divides the country...

I have no problem with that But in 50 year when all the oil will be pump out of Alberta they will come back, But not Québec.

[Mustang1]

(Posted this before) Some clarification may be needed: modern political science commonly treats “federalism” as the middle term of a tripartite classification – the poles being “confederalism” and the “unitary state.” Canada, therefore, is actually a federation, and not a confederation (although late 19th century lexicon practically makes little distinction between the two), but it is, from a political science standpoint, better to conclude that the BNA Act of 1867 provided elements that were both unitary and divided sovereignty (a component of federalism)

[Tricks]

Elvis Elvis:

Ruserious wrote

$1:

It would cater to Quebec and Alberta's wishes at the expense of the ROC.

Which is why it divides the country...

I have no problem with that But in 50 year when all the oil will be pump out of Alberta they will come back, But not Québec.

No, quebec would come back within a year, because you would be so bloody poor.

[VitaminC]

Tricks Tricks:

No, quebec would come back within a year, because you would be so bloody poor.

Nice, insulting someone is always a good way to make them feel welcome.

[Tricks]

VitaminC VitaminC:

Tricks Tricks:

No, quebec would come back within a year, because you would be so bloody poor.

Nice, insulting someone is always a good way to make them feel welcome.

It's not an insult. It's a fact.

[Bodah]

Ruserious Ruserious:

DECENTRALIZATION OF POWERS

1. Natural Resources
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

2. Manpower Training
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

3. Social Services (including welfare, education and health care)
Change the role of the federal government to foster cooperative
Interprovincial agreements rather than imposing unilateral standards
by withholding transfer payments.

4. Language
Replace the Official Languages Act with a new law, the Regional
Bilingualism Act, that would recognize the demographic and linguistic
realities of Canada and the practices of provincial authorities.

5. Culture
Make provincial governments the primary providers and guardians of
cultural services and primary regulators of cultural industries.

6. Municipal Affairs
Strengthen the role of municipal governments in the delivery of
essential services.

7. Housing
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

8. Tourism
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

9. Sports and Recreation
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

10. Spending Power
Forbid new federal spending programs in provincial jurisdiction.

11. Transfers to the Provinces
Replace federal cash block grants with tax point grants.

12. Charter Challenges
End the Court Challenges program and its tax-funded court challenges
of provincial legislation.

13. Disallowance, Reserve, and Declaratory Powers
Remain dormant.


REFORM OF INSTITUTIONS

14. House of Commons
Permit greater freedom for individual MP's; wider use of referenda,
citizens' initiatives and recall.

15. Senate of Canada
All future appointments to the Senate would be made by means of
elections on the model of the 1989 Alberta Senate selection process.

16. Supreme Court and Judiciary
Future appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada would be made by
the provincial legislatures; all appointments reviewed by elected
Senate.

17. Bank of Canada
Future board appointments made by provincial legislatures. Ottawa
would continue to select the Governor of the Bank.

18. Lieutenant Governors
Appointed by provincial legislatures.

19. Tax, Debt and Expenditure Limitation
Unilaterally amend the Constitution to forbid deficit spending or
rapid spending increases, except when authorized by a national
referendum.

20. Constitutional Referendums
Introduce a motion in the House of Commons that all future
constitutional amendments must be approved by majorities in all
regions of Canada through a referendum.

Overall its giving more power to the people back and its making our federal government more honest while keeping their "ideals" out of my life.

And you have a problem with this?

I think what you see and fear is that some provinces will do much better now once the grips of federal government is broken.

You probably fear others wont do so well. Economically speaking some may do better than others, as there doing right now. But do you honestly think were going to let some of our provinces turn into third world states right under our noses? ...Of course not, stop thinking like a communist

I go into detail about it but it would inevtiably lead into a 44 page rant from Ruserious on how Harper has dragons in his shed or something.

[Virgil]

Elvis Elvis:

Well you see if The conservative do decentralize Canada in that way and make it a true Confederation then it would be fine for most Quebecer. But I don't think That Canadian would like it. (maybe with the execption to Alberta) But I don't think that it would be necessary to apply this model coast-to-coast. I think Québec could be considere a part of the Canadian Confederation* But other province could choose to be federated or confederated (Province-state).


*A confederation is an association of sovereign states, usually created by treaty but often later adopting a common constitution. Confederations tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defence, foreign affairs, foreign trade, and a common currency, with the central government being required to provide support for all members. A confederation, in modern political terms, is usually limited to a permanent union of sovereign states

I agree with most of what you say here. The division of powers from what I can percieve, enables people who live under different regional or cultural conditions than that of Ottawa to be able to govern themselves on such issues-- so as to never be oppressed or exploited by the federal government. I agree that province-states should exist, as from what I can tell, they mostly do. I don't think our division of powers system is perfected, but is, for the moment, adequate. Ottawa should deal with issues affecting the whole country, or most of it, and the provinces should deal with issues affecting their respective selves.

$1:

VitaminC wrote:
Tricks wrote:
No, quebec would come back within a year, because you would be so bloody poor.


Nice, insulting someone is always a good way to make them feel welcome.
It's not an insult. It's a fact.

-Tricks

sorry for the poor quoting you should be able to make it out.

Tricks if you would note that Duceppe wishes for Quebec to maintain economic untiy with Canada in the same manner as the nations of the Europaean Union do.

$1:

Ruserious wrote:
DECENTRALIZATION OF POWERS

1. Natural Resources
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

2. Manpower Training
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

3. Social Services (including welfare, education and health care)
Change the role of the federal government to foster cooperative
Interprovincial agreements rather than imposing unilateral standards
by withholding transfer payments.

4. Language
Replace the Official Languages Act with a new law, the Regional
Bilingualism Act, that would recognize the demographic and linguistic
realities of Canada and the practices of provincial authorities.

5. Culture
Make provincial governments the primary providers and guardians of
cultural services and primary regulators of cultural industries.

6. Municipal Affairs
Strengthen the role of municipal governments in the delivery of
essential services.

7. Housing
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

8. Tourism
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

9. Sports and Recreation
Guarantee exclusive provincial control.

10. Spending Power
Forbid new federal spending programs in provincial jurisdiction.

11. Transfers to the Provinces
Replace federal cash block grants with tax point grants.

12. Charter Challenges
End the Court Challenges program and its tax-funded court challenges
of provincial legislation.

13. Disallowance, Reserve, and Declaratory Powers
Remain dormant.


REFORM OF INSTITUTIONS

14. House of Commons
Permit greater freedom for individual MP's; wider use of referenda,
citizens' initiatives and recall.

15. Senate of Canada
All future appointments to the Senate would be made by means of
elections on the model of the 1989 Alberta Senate selection process.

16. Supreme Court and Judiciary
Future appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada would be made by
the provincial legislatures; all appointments reviewed by elected
Senate.

17. Bank of Canada
Future board appointments made by provincial legislatures. Ottawa
would continue to select the Governor of the Bank.

18. Lieutenant Governors
Appointed by provincial legislatures.

19. Tax, Debt and Expenditure Limitation
Unilaterally amend the Constitution to forbid deficit spending or
rapid spending increases, except when authorized by a national
referendum.

20. Constitutional Referendums
Introduce a motion in the House of Commons that all future
constitutional amendments must be approved by majorities in all
regions of Canada through a referendum.

I disagree with 8 and 19. Other than that. Merveilleux.


Now what I have against Harper's promesses to Quebec is giving a province the right to enter international (I don't know how to better say this, I don't think the term is appropriate since I consider Quebec a nation) political organizations. They of course would be guaranteed freedom of speech on the international level, and I believe that the province-- along with every other cultural association in canada (the Metis Nation for example)-- should have the right to belong to international cultural organizations.