[QBC]

Don't get me wrong Toro, there is a very good argument for Gretzky and for the most part I agree. If you look at his era though, it was the era of the goal scorer and big scores in the games. I think Crosby could be almost as good as Gretzky, but he will never get the points Wayne did due to the different game being played now. Better goalies, faster and more skilled defence. Orr was amazing to watch. He saw the ice very much the same as Wayne did but was a defenseman. He saw his role as much larger than any defenseman before or since and had amazing skill with the puck.

[QBC]

Ya know, no one has talked about a goalie as being the best to ever play I don't think. Hmmm??????

[Sapper]

Bring up a name. But it's a position that's more difficult to judge. Might actually be it's own topic.

[twister]

Goalie can change the course of a game, can win series in the playoffs can do everything and anything placed before them.. But with goalies it's different. One could claim and measure 1 goalie is the greatest by the number of wins, the number of shutouts, playoff wins Stanley cups. etc etc etc.

But many goalies are partners along for the ride of great defences Ken Dryden and great offences Grant Fuhr.
Or just great teams Russian national team Vladislav Tretiak.

A goalie will never be ranked as the greatest player in History. Brodeur in the next 3 years will set the all time marks for shut outs and wins and he's got a couple of Stanley cups and a plethera of individual awards.. He could very well be the greatest goalie of all time, but he played behind probably one of the best defensive set ups in the NHL.

[twister]

Comparing two different times, two different players, two different Positions
Lets look at Gretzky's total over 9 years.. his first 9 with the Oilers
Orr's Career was done after his first 9 years.. So lets see if we can see any comparable stuff: Definate apples - oranges stuff.

A center who changed the way his position was played and how the game was played as well.

Wayne Gretzky Center
Born Jan 26 1961 -- Brantford, ONT
Height 6.00 -- Weight 185

1979-80 Edmonton Oilers NHL 79 51 86 137 21 3 2 1 3 0
1980-81 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 55 109 164 28 9 7 14 21 4
1981-82 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 92 120 212 26 5 5 7 12 8
1982-83 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 71 125 196 59 16 12 26 38 4
1983-84 Edmonton Oilers NHL 74 87 118 205 39 19 13 22 35 12
1984-85 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 73 135 208 52 18 17 30 47 4
1985-86 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 52 163 215 46 10 8 11 19 2
1986-87 Edmonton Oilers NHL 79 62 121 183 28 21 5 29 34 6
1987-88 Edmonton Oilers NHL 64 40 109 149 24 19 12 31 43 16

Game played 696 : Goals:583 Assists: 1086 Points: 1669 PIM: 323 +/- : 536

Four Stanley Cups: 1984, 1985,1987, 1988
2 Conn Smythe Trophy 1984-85, 1987-88
8 Hart Memorial Trophy 1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84 1984-85, 1985-86, 1986-87
7 Art Ross Trophy 1980-81, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84, 1984-85, 1985-86, 1986-87

Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1979-80
5 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1981-82 1982-83 1983-84 1984-85 1986-87

1988 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Cup winning goal

[twister]

Bobby Orr's Career TOTALS
games played: 657 Goals: 270 Assists: 645 points: 915 PIM: 953 +/- career: +597

Wayne Gretzky's numbers over his first 9 years all with the Oilers:
Game played 696 : Goals:583 Assists: 1086 Points: 1669 PIM: 323 +/- : +536

[Sapper]

Bobby Orr

Twister, I don't care what everyone else says about you, I think you have a damn good grasp of hockey. You just cheer for the wrong team.

The whole reason I posted the question was because of a dicussion over a few beer the bar we like to call "The Office". Real name "Ugra". Some young pups think todays hockey players, because of their better training would skate circles around the old stars. Even Bobby Orr. Poor sorry bastards.

[kaetz]

well... i can't say about "the greatest ever", simply cause i had no chance to watch so many of them playing, but the one i like the best is Kharlamov. Officially he wasn't Pro, neither was Bobrov, nor Tretiak. But he was sooo damn good on ice! Stats is useless in this case. He had the style!

[TattoodGirl]

#4

Bobby Orr

Growing up my Dad would always get us to watch the games Orr played in. I would just sit there amazed. I always wore the #4 on my jersey and would take out any other kid that wanted it. I still watch all those old tapes and I still think he is the best all round player.

When I play drop-in I always have my #4 and will still take anyone out that wants the same number as me......

[twister]

Thanks Sapper.. No I just can't bring myself to cheer for that team.
Comparing factors: First 9 years of the career:

Orr was +597 and he scored 915 points in 657 games.

Gretzky was +562 but he scored 1669 points in 696 games


Orr got his nose dirty.. I have a lot of respect for guys who get in there, not only support but hit, check, dig, dangle, move the puck and score.
He blocked shots, took away empty net goals and turned them into offensive opportunities for Boston.

As an all round player there was none better than Bobby Orr. He was Phenominal playing D and beyond a superstar playing offence. He was close to being +600 in his career. he was + 124 in one season will anyone ever reach that mark again.. no

If you can have a guy who gets 200+ PIM's a year not because he's lazy but because he is a physical force (making guys pay a price for real estate). He scores 30+ goals 50+ assists 80+ points per season ( as a forward or a D) he wasn't afraid to drop the gloves ( never turtled when push came to shove). he was a dedicated and supported guy throughout the league. Be the first guy up on the dump and forecheck then be the first guy back on Defence...
He made normal guys Stars, and stars into superstars.
He is the guy if you were winning or your losing you had on the ice with 45 seconds left.

Put all that together in a ball - Then you've got Bobby Orr.

The fact that you can have a player on your roster who was a +124 absolutely blows me away.


Never remember seeing Gretzky block shots, hit, fight (check that once vs Neal Broten.. uhm he got schooled) Gretzky was the most pheominal forward of all time.. he owns pretty much every scoring record in the history of the NHL..

It was his style and edmontons team that lead to that success. yes Gretzky made people better around him as well. But Gretzky was different he was an offensive dynamo.. but luckily he wasn't required to be the ultimate defensive player as well. Gret's offence shined because the Oilers could win games by 3-4 goals.. as a canucks fan during that time... ya I saw it time and time again.

Don't know how Canuck goaltenders slept the night before they played the oilers. Grant Fuhr used to say he would just try to keep the score under six because he knew his guys could score seven.

[twister]

You ask even guys who played with Gretzky, Paul Coffey, Mark Messier etc. every body who played or coached hockey in the sixties and seventies, eighties even the 90's who the best player was.. Even Gretzky.. His Idol was Howe but the best player he remembers seeing was #4 Bobby Orr.

[twister]

At the Allstar game. 2007. they asked Alexander Ovechkin who the best player in the NHL is right now... Ovy looked at the guy doing the interview and said without hesitation... ME.... God I howled... he's all that and Modest too... LOL

[Richard]

I just think this is one of life's impossible questions. Like how do you figure out a woman or the weather.

To pick one player and call him the best ever is a tuff job, statistics no matter how you swing them are all bullshit.

If you add to an earlier posters comments about era's then you would see the Gretz would have been canon fodder in Howes time. Howe would lived out his days in the penalty box in Gretz's time. So the way I see it using very ruff logic and the names most commonly used.

The definitive answer would be #4 Orr he could play well at either end of the ice and not even the "broad street bullies" intimidated him.

[mtbr]

...Lemieux and Gretzky after they retired I quit watching the NHL because all thats left is over paid and over rated bums like Iginla!

[Sapper]

mtbr mtbr:

...Lemieux and Gretzky after they retired I quit watching the NHL because all thats left is over paid and over rated bums like Iginla!

Then why are you interested in posting in the hockey section?