[Blue_Nose]

Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:

Nonetheless, if the primary goal of Live 8 was to get people talking about African poverty, then it's worked, because here we are talking about it.

Africans are in poverty? Gee, I had no idea. Good thing they had that concert to bring that to my attention. Let's discuss it for a while, and then, when it gets boring again, we'll forget about it.

It was an excuse to make people feel good about something, but didn't really do much.

[BartSimpson]

Robair Robair:

hwacker hwacker:

Clean up the Governments, ie: Iraq,.

Right, 'cause we can all see how well that is working out.

How about some original ideas. C'mon, we're all a bunch of self professed geniuses. Lets hear 'em.

Yeah, we screwed up everytime we occupied a country after a brutal war. Here we are sixty years after the fact and we're still stuck in Germany & Japan with no clear exit strategy.

Rearranging a culture and a nation does not happen overnight.

Unless you want to address these endemic problems in Africa there is no way poverty will ever end there. Africans cause African poverty.

[The Lumberjack]

blue_nose blue_nose:

Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:

Nonetheless, if the primary goal of Live 8 was to get people talking about African poverty, then it's worked, because here we are talking about it.

Africans are in poverty? Gee, I had no idea. Good thing they had that concert to bring that to my attention. Let's discuss it for a while, and then, when it gets boring again, we'll forget about it.

It was an excuse to make people feel good about something, but didn't really do much.

Bluenose - we agree - for the first time ever

[Robair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Africans cause African poverty.

Is that so?

$1:

In total, US cotton subsidies run at around 3.4 billion dollars a year. They have been blamed for overproduction in the US which has led to a 54 per cent drop in the world price of cotton since the mid-1990s.

The British-based NGO Oxfam has calculated that since 2001 Africa has been losing an average of 441 million dollars a year as a result of trade distortions in cotton markets from dumped exports. It is estimated that there are three million cotton producers in southern Africa.

One small example.

[Ripcat]

Those of you that believe that Live 8 will have no affect on African poverty are actually saying the same things that Bob and company are trying to say.

Dollars(and tears) are not enough. The corrupt governments must be 'coerced' into changing and the people of Africa must take some responsiblity for effecting this change.

The problem is there isn't enough 'coersion' happening and the Africans are too poor, sick and uneducated to effect change.

This is partly the fault of the G8 nations. We sent too much food aid and dollars that went unaccounted for.

Africans have no infrastructure due to the corrupt regimes. They need schools, hospitals, transportation links(roads and railways), government buildings, running water, sewage systems and fair trade practices. They can't build these things bec ause they don't have the knowledge to build them.

(Europe and Japan were easy to rebuild after WWII because all they needed was the money. They already had trade, governments and people trained to rebuild infrastructure.(engineers, skilled trades, doctors,nurses))

Live 8 is all about bringing awareness to people that don't realize that $$$ and food is not enough and to put pressure on the G8 governments to enact policies that will address these issues more effectively. Yes, increase aid but do it responsibly so Africans get the tools they need to survive on their own.

In my opinion 'coersion' can include military intervention if it means we won't have to watch another 30 years of death. They say 30,000 children die every day from extreme poverty. I don't think western military intervention wwill ever cause this many deaths a day. If Iraq was powerless to fight the west I'm sure corrupt regimes in Africa will have an even tougher time against a well planned military intervention. We just need to know that we will have to be prepared build a nation from the ground up when we go in.

[Patrick_Ross]

blue_nose blue_nose:

Africans are in poverty? Gee, I had no idea. Good thing they had that concert to bring that to my attention. Let's discuss it for a while, and then, when it gets boring again, we'll forget about it.

It was an excuse to make people feel good about something, but didn't really do much.

It's been all of four days. In a wee bit of a rush to judgement, aren't we?

...And before anybody puts too much stock in the word of Peter Worthington, he also wrote such classics as "It's Jean Chretien's Fault if George Bush Punishes Us".

[Robair]

hwacker hwacker:

Robair Robair:

hwacker hwacker:

Clean up the Governments, ie: Iraq,.

Right, 'cause we can all see how well that is working out.

How about some original ideas. C'mon, we're all a bunch of self professed geniuses. Lets hear 'em.

FYI I think it's working fine. and how do you get rid of these people?

"will you leave pretty please"

yeah thats going to work.

See a problem? Throw some bombs at it! Great! Revolutionary thinking!! Why, that's just how Saddam would handle it. Kurdish uprising? Gass 'em, problem solved.

"The politics of Africa are the politics of the stomach." So how do you make food less valuable, or more available? How do you get a green revolution started in Africa?

I dunno.

But I bet I know how you can garauntee it never happens... drop bombs.

[Patrick_Ross]

When dealing with beligerents like the most corrupt African leaders, to rule out military intervention under any circumstances is a recipe for failure.
I fully expect that just as this intervention has been necessary in the past (Rwanda, Sudan), it will be again in the future.
Not that I would disagree with you if you said it should be kept as a last resort.

[Robair]

Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:

Not that I would disagree with you if you said it should be kept as a last resort.

As opposed to shock and awe (Iraq is the example Hwack used). A last resort and a minimalist strategy. Yea no doubt.

But the point I was also trying to make is look at what they are fighting over. I'll give you two hints:

1) it's not oil

2) The politics of Africa are the politics of the stomach

So now, my fellow geniuses, lets hear some solutions. I think we have to somehow get that country not only producing food, but give them the abillity to distribute it before it rots (a real problem there now, no roads, trains...)

Any thoughts?

[ShepherdsDog]

It's interesting that this exact same scenario is occurring in Canada as we type and nothing has been done to address it. I'm talking about the state that exists on Indian Reservations. Tyrants, criminals and their cronies running their own fiefdoms, those who need the aid most not getting it, governments throwing billions at a problem but unwilling to hold the recipients fiscally responsible. Even off the Reserves, in our cities, we have children going to school hungry, not having warm clothes in the winter and living on the streets. Perhaps we should get our own internal affairs in order before we try and sort out the problems in Africa. As the saying goes, "Charity starts at home."

[Giselle]

$1:

It's interesting that this exact same scenario is occurring in Canada as we type and nothing has been done to address it. I'm talking about the state that exists on Indian Reservations. Tyrants, criminals and their cronies running their own fiefdoms, those who need the aid most not getting it, governments throwing billions at a problem but unwilling to hold the recipients fiscally responsible. Even off the Reserves, in our cities, we have children going to school hungry, not having warm clothes in the winter and living on the streets. Perhaps we should get our own internal affairs in order before we try and sort out the problems in Africa. As the saying goes, "Charity starts at home."

No Shit! I'm sick of hearing and seeing Canadians all up in arms and concerned about Africa and it's problems when some of the things that are going on right here on our own soil are just as horrible and disgusting. Just another fine example of how ignorant and misinformed people really are.

Martin meeting Bono? Who gives a shit! These morons are walking around there like anyone actually gives a shit what they have to say. Do ya really think Bush cares what the hell Geldof thinks of him or his policies? Ya okay.

The only real good thing to come out of this was that Waters was playing with Gilmore again.

[Robair]

Giselle Giselle:

I'm sick of hearing and seeing Canadians all up in arms and concerned about Africa and it's problems when some of the things that are going on right here on our own soil are just as horrible and disgusting.
Just another fine example of how ignorant and misinformed people really are.

I'm curiouse.

What problems in Canada are you comparing to aids and the rest of Africa's problems?

I'm ignorant, inform me.

[Patrick_Ross]

Actually, I have to partially agree with him. I think we have a responsibility to tackle poverty within our own borders, as well. However, that doesn't give us an excuse to ignore African poverty.
Also, I would like to remind him that the current state of Indian Reservations is actually a complex issue that falls upon many different issues: funding, mismanagement, and political standoffishness.

[GreatBriton]

July 06, 2005, 8:09 a.m.
“We Care!”
Grace on the cheap.

by Jonah Goldberg


According to Bob Geldof, two billion people watched his snazzy Live8 concert thingamajig. Therefore, he declared, "It's now for the leaders to act." He also added, "Now feel the force of the gale that's hit you." At the top of Geldof's gale-force demands: debt relief for African nations.

O.K., so here's what I'm confused about. People watched a concert, which was chockablock with acts supposedly popular with the young 'uns and old 'uns alike. From Snoop Dogg, Will Smith, and Coldplay to the more aged likes of Madonna, Sting, and Bono. There were even a few troubadours with last names (or at least two first names), such as Elton John.

And the spectacle was impressive, so much so that Chris Martin of Coldplay declared it "the greatest thing that's ever been organized probably in the history of the world." (You've heard of the Normandy invasion, the Manhattan Project, the Marshall Plan, various moon landings, the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church? Impromptu flea markets! We've got a major-league telecast here.) Passing over Martin's slight overstatement, no harm will come from conceding that it was a very nice concert for those interested in such things.

But tell me, how exactly was Live8 a monumental demonstration of support for helping Africa?

Perhaps we could organize an ice-cream and candy giveaway at the local mall to show that children are against the deficit? Anyone who shows up is for raising taxes. Or, hey — and I'm just thinking out loud now — maybe Madonna could invite everybody to show their concern about global warming by coming to her mansion (pick one) and helping themselves to whatever's in her fridge.

You see my point? Presumably this was a concert most of the attendees wanted to go to anyway. To say that two billion people favor debt relief for Africa is akin to saying that everyone who watches Desperate Housewives is pro-choice because the producers are.

You may be wondering how much money this intercontinental jam session raised for the sick and dying of Africa. Alas, not a farthing. Sir Bob Geldof was very explicit about this point. Live8 was intended to raise consciousness and exert political pressure on the G8 summiteers. No one was allowed to actually raise money for the masses of starving people in Africa. None of the dollars spent on the concert by fans, corporate sponsors, or television networks will reach Africa. Charities couldn't rattle tin cups outside the porta-potties and concession stands. This was solely an effort to prod the West to get behind the slogan, "Make Poverty History."

Nice line. But, uh, how? I'm sure Geldof, Bono, and a few others have some ideas worth listening to. But I somehow doubt the Madonna and Snoop Dogg fans in the audience had formed a particularly cogent consensus on how to "Make Poverty History." In fact, I doubt you could get even a fraction of them to agree on a recipe for apple brown betty.

Very smart people have been trying really, really hard to make poverty history for a long time. Heck, they've been working very hard to make Africa just ever-so-slightly less hellish for a very long time. Debt relief is probably part of a potential solution, but without ending Africa's tendency to produce horrible, greedy dictatorships, debt relief is more akin to paying off a drug addict's credit cards.

Even if the concert goers were speaking with a single voice, they weren't saying anything of much use, except "we care" — and aren't we special people for it? Geldof summed up the attitude perfectly when he said, "Something must be done, even if it doesn't work."

This concert was an exercise in boosting the self-esteem of the audience. Included in the ticket price was grace on the cheap. t-shirts cost extra. Live8 was an appeal to the vanity of people who collectively aren't concerned enough about Africa to watch a classical music concert.

Geldof's heart is in the right place, I'm sure. But what he really did was successfully bribe a bunch of people to be props in a publicity stunt. And I somehow suspect that the G8 leaders do feel the force of the gale that's hit them — and it feels a lot like a gust of hot air.

— (c) 2005 Tribune Media Services


www.nationalreview.com . . .

[Patrick_Ross]

I believe that's a tad bit of an unfair statement.