[BartSimpson]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

My heroes are most likely psychopaths.

Fixed that for you.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

So a life sentence for somebody who caused death by negligence same as a hit man?

What if the hit man is a psycopath? Or FAS? Or delusional? Or has a huge brain tumour? Did he form intent, or did his brain chemcials. I would argue the latter.

So then punishment should have no place in our justice system, since the perp is not responsible for his/her actions. But I guess you would agree we have to lock them up to protect society. Since the perps have no free will, we would have to lock them up forever, even for minor offenses, or set some sort of bar for severity of offense, below which we don't bother prosecuting at all, since we don't really know how to cure these conditions.

What about 4 year olds?

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

What about 4 year olds?

Send them to Parliament as usual.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

So then punishment should have no place in our justice system, since the perp is not responsible for his/her actions.

Exactly.

$1:

But I guess you would agree we have to lock them up to protect society. Since the perps have no free will, we would have to lock them up forever, even for minor offenses,

This doesn't follow for me. more later gotta fly.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

So then punishment should have no place in our justice system, since the perp is not responsible for his/her actions.

Exactly.

$1:

But I guess you would agree we have to lock them up to protect society. Since the perps have no free will, we would have to lock them up forever, even for minor offenses,

This doesn't follow for me. more later gotta fly.

If you resume this topic: I don't think our understanding of the unconscious or even brain processes allows us to say for sure that people have no self-agency. We can see it in action all the time. So I don't agree that the perp is not responsible for their actions. That doesn't mean I'm all for punishment - it doesn't work well anyway. There are better ways to teach people self-responsibility and how to fit to societies norms. Might still involve incarceration to protect society tho while learn these ways, and if they can't, they might have to be incarcerated for life. But we can treat them decently while in, like they are with that Brevik character. Being locked up is punishment enough.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

What about 4 year olds?

Send them to Parliament as usual.

You must have been watching Question Period yesterday!

[susanlinda8234]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

So a life sentence for somebody who caused death by negligence same as a hit man?

What if the hit man is a psycopath? Or FAS? Or delusional? Or has a huge brain tumour? Did he form intent, or did his brain chemcials. I would argue the latter.

I'd say life sentence also depends on how much money and power you have backing you up

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

If you resume this topic: I don't think our understanding of the unconscious or even brain processes allows us to say for sure that people have no self-agency.

Not for certain, agreed. But it seems likely based on logic and moutning recent evidence. We need to sort this out. We don't blame OCDs foir their peccadillos, but we blame alcoholics for their blight. Some recent evidence that OCD and addiction may be more related than previous though. Perhaps even the same, once you do away with the chemcial dependence issues.

$1:

We can see it in action all the time. So I don't agree that the perp is not responsible for their actions. That doesn't mean I'm all for punishment - it doesn't work well anyway. There are better ways to teach people self-responsibility and how to fit to societies norms. Might still involve incarceration to protect society tho while learn these ways, and if they can't, they might have to be incarcerated for life. But we can treat them decently while in, like they are with that Brevik character. Being locked up is punishment enough.

I am completely against punishment. It's about rehabilitation where feasible and deterrrance--both specific and general.

off again!

Srtill thinking about the 4 y.o.

[Unsound]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

You just like me in Spandex.

you can wear whatever you want as long as you're making more of those beautiful ribs you posted a pic of a while ago.

[Jabberwalker]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

You just like me in Spandex.

UGH!!


Psycho!

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

andyt andyt:

If you resume this topic: I don't think our understanding of the unconscious or even brain processes allows us to say for sure that people have no self-agency.

Not for certain, agreed. But it seems likely based on logic and moutning recent evidence. We need to sort this out. We don't blame OCDs foir their peccadillos, but we blame alcoholics for their blight. Some recent evidence that OCD and addiction may be more related than previous though. Perhaps even the same, once you do away with the chemcial dependence issues.

.

I don't think so. The evidence might point to us having less self-agency than we like to believe, but we do have it - that's what our prefrontal cortex is for.

They did an experiment where they asked subjects to raise their fingers at will. Turns out that they had already initiated the finger raising before they became aware of it - it it was an unconscious process. Shook up consciousness studies quite a bit. But think about it - we don't go around raising our fingers willy nilly because our unconscious makes us. There's some sort of interaction where our conscious says it wants to do this, and the unconscious seems to take care of actually doing it.

Conversely, Jung said the ego was like a golfball riding on the ocean of the unconscious, but that individuation meant the ego was in control of behavior, not the unconscious. All sorts of havoc comes from allowing the unconscious to act without restraint.

The thing is that so many factors influence our unconscious that it can be very hard for us to make conscious decisions. The factors you mentioned, but also external factors, environmental, social, etc. Gabor Mate has said that 100% of the addicts he's worked with on the DTES suffered childhood trauma. No doubt most criminals did too. So to just see them as scumbags that decided to harm others just because they want to is way too simplistic. On the other hand, they can't just be allowed to continue with their harming of other people. We need to put much more effort into changing their minds to change their behavior - positive effort. And recognize that there are people who are beyond our reach and may have to be locked up for a long time or forever. But just treating them like scum does nothing except please our baser urges for revenge.

[andyt]

$1:

Abstract
Everyday intuitions suggest full conscious control of behavior, but
evidence of unconscious causation and automaticity has sustained the
contrary view that conscious thought has little or no impact on behavior.
We review studies with random assignment to experimental manipulations
of conscious thought and behavioral dependent measures. Topics include
mental practice and simulation, anticipation, planning, reflection and
rehearsal, reasoning, counterproductive effects, perspective taking, selfaffirmation,
framing, communication, and overriding automatic responses. The evidence for conscious causation of behavior is profound, extensive,
adaptive, multifaceted, and empirically strong. However, conscious
causation is often indirect and delayed, and it depends on interplay with
unconscious processes. Consciousness seems especially useful for
enabling behavior to be shaped by nonpresent factors and by social and
cultural information, as well as for dealing with multiple competing
options or impulses. It is plausible that almost every human behavior
comes from a mixture of conscious and unconscious processing.

http://www.summer12.isc.uqam.ca/page/do ... havior.pdf