[martin14]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

You seem to know what capitalism isn't. But you never tell us what it is. How about you explain how it is supposed to work so that we can erase the trillions of dollars in debt that your moving target has accumulated.

ok, so our system isnt being run as well as it could be.. fine.


How about you explain how the Soviet Union and the East Bloc countries
lost all power because they went bankrupt ?

You complain about capitalism, but dont understand socialism was much worse.

[Proculation]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Proculation Proculation:

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Bullshit. You move the bar when the system fails and claim that what you are seeing is not "real capitalism".

Capitalism and greed are synonyms.

"Get rich and stay rich by any means."

WHO WENT TO JAIL??

You are, like a lot of people, mixing corporatism and capitalism.

Of course capitalism is based on greed. That's the basic of capitalism. That's why it works. Without greed, no innovation and no wealth. No wealth, no redistribution of wealth and poverty for all.

(edited a lapsus)

You seem to know what capitalism isn't. But you never tell us what it is. How about you explain how it is supposed to work so that we can erase the trillions of dollars in debt that your moving target has accumulated.

Well, i'm not too good in english definition but here's wiki's: Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

I add this: for a capitalist system to work you need: 1) Rule of law 2) property rights for individuals 3) free markets. Protection of your rights to own and trade.

[Proculation]

Capitalism is natural. That's what distinguishes us from animal !

[Donny_Brasco]

Apollo Apollo:

I'm sorry but I can't remember the last time a breakthrough in medicine came from Cuba or North Korea.

That a good point despite the fact that Cubians can expect equal or better health care than Americans for pennies on the dollar.

When is the last time that a poor American could afford life saving surgury to save their life...medical breakthroughs are no good if the average person can't afford them.

[Donny_Brasco]

Proculation Proculation:

Yes, I agree a public healthcare system is a good thing. But how is it more human ? Of course, you get "free" healthcare but at a cost: quality. How is it human to let people die on waiting lists ? In an individualist and capitalist world, you would have the best healthcare of the world.

Yes, you would have the best healthcare in the world if you could afford it.

I will take the best STANDARD for healthcare in the world.

I have no idea why anyone would argue for the best healthcare possible but affordable only to a select few when the best STANDARD of healthcare is available UNIVERSALLY. And given that the best possible is only a fraction better than the best standard...and given that your and whoever is reading this is guaranteed not to be able to afford the best possible...

It is a no-brainer. Go ahead opt for the best possible and move to the states. But make sure to turn in your citizenship when you leave so that when the insurance company death panel denies your claim you have no option but to pay for it yourself or die.

Just like the people dyeing in the system your advocating because money comes before people.

Waiting lists? How about you show me stats for people dying on waiting lists in a socialist style system so I can compare them to the people dying without insurance or in spite of insurance in a user pay system?

I worked in Saskatchewan Health for several years and I can count the people who died waiting - and that being the only cause, on one finger.

That is one in a Million. Does your user pay have a better record? (Redundant question btw)

[Proculation]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Proculation Proculation:

Yes, I agree a public healthcare system is a good thing. But how is it more human ? Of course, you get "free" healthcare but at a cost: quality. How is it human to let people die on waiting lists ? In an individualist and capitalist world, you would have the best healthcare of the world.

Yes, you would have the best healthcare in the world if you could afford it.

I will take the best STANDARD for healthcare in the world.

I have no idea why anyone would argue for the best healthcare possible but affordable only to a select few when the best STANDARD of healthcare is available UNIVERSALLY. And given that the best possible is only a fraction better than the best standard...and given that your and whoever is reading this is guaranteed not to be able to afford the best possible...

It is a no-brainer. Go ahead opt for the best possible and move to the states. But make sure to turn in your citizenship when you leave so that when the insurance company death panel denies your claim you have no option but to pay for it yourself or die.

Just like the people dyeing in the system your advocating because money comes before people.

Waiting lists? How about you show me stats for people dying on waiting lists in a socialist style system so I can compare them to the people dying without insurance or in spite of insurance in a user pay system?

I worked in Saskatchewan Health for several years and I can count the people who died waiting - and that being the only cause, on one finger.

That is one in a Million. Does your user pay have a better record? (Redundant question btw)

I'm not advocating any system. I'm just saying that it is not true that the best healthcare is a socialized one. It is universal but not the best that's for sure. And in my opinion it is less human since my rights to access healthcare are violated.

[Donny_Brasco]

martin14 martin14:

How about you explain how the Soviet Union and the East Bloc countries
lost all power because they went bankrupt ?

There is a difference between the will of the people and communism. People in government elected to carry out the will of the population is a democracy. If you run and are elected because you advocate a socialist agenda then you are a not in a communist country, you are in a social democracy. The Canadian government enables universal healthcare because people who are elected know that that is the will of the people who elected them.

[Donny_Brasco]

Duplicate

[Donny_Brasco]

Proculation Proculation:

Capitalism is natural. That's what distinguishes us from animal !

What distinguishes us from animals is our consciousness of our own being.

We are the only species on this planet able and willing to extinguish our own existence because of greed and fear. Since capitalism is a synonym for greed I would say that advocating for business to self regulate and protect the existence of the human race is a crap shoot at best.

Look at the present meltdown. You can blame it on the government influence on the market by directing lenders to lend to risky borrowers. But that does not explain how these risky mortgages were packaged and sold to other traders in the free market. If in fact the greed level were lower than those risky investments would have been unsalable and the instances of risky and illegal lending would have slowed or stopped.

Simple short term greed and free market bullshit has lead to a financial meltdown that our kid’s kids will still be paying for.

Now look at the Canadian socialist system has regulated our banking and pushed our system to the world's forefront as an example of how to operate in a market with regulation and a sense of responsibility.

Now capitalist advocators will move the bar and pretend that that canadian system is actually a model for their capitalist system or that that it is entirely a fluke that government intervention and regulation has actually proven to be better than the free market each for their own system.

But as usual the capitalists are stealing from the masses and advocating "gee this time we're going to get it right so don’t let the socialist monster get to you before we can get things right..." when the only monster is unregulated free market systems where greed and money come before basic human needs.

[Zipperfish]

Proculation Proculation:

$1:

The military, for example, is hugely socialized in every successful civilization I know of.

Capitalism needs the Rule of Law to protect the freedom and property rights of the people. That part is assumed by the state and that's why the military and the police are "socialized".

And therefore you support socialism.

[Proculation]

$1:

What distinguishes us from animals is our consciousness of our own being.

hehe I know. But our consciouness leads us to trade things between ourselve to improve our life. That's capitalism !

$1:

Since capitalism is a synonym for greed ...

Capitalism is not a synonym of greed. But greed is human and since capitalism is about the nature of human, greed is part of capitalism. Actually, like I said before, it's the driving force of capitalism. That's why it works.

For the crisis, yes the government has it's share of the guilt but not only them. Everybody was part of the big scam. The lenders, the owners, the real-estaters, etc.

$1:

But as usual the capitalists are stealing from the masses ...

Capitalists do not steal. Thiefs steal. Capitalists trade with people who wants to trade voluntarily. They are not forced to anything. That is socialism.

[Proculation]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Proculation Proculation:

$1:

The military, for example, is hugely socialized in every successful civilization I know of.

Capitalism needs the Rule of Law to protect the freedom and property rights of the people. That part is assumed by the state and that's why the military and the police are "socialized".

And therefore you support socialism.

What are you talking about
Preserving the rule of law is a necessity. I'm a capitalist, not an anarchist.

[Donny_Brasco]

Proculation Proculation:

That's why it works.

Where does it work?

Ever time it fails you remind us of the changing agenda but I don't call the present situation a sign of success.

[Donny_Brasco]

Proculation Proculation:

Capitalists do not steal. Thiefs steal. Capitalists trade with people who wants to trade voluntarily. They are not forced to anything. That is socialism.

Really? Then how about you make the business owners pay for their own bailouts out of the years of profits instead out of yours and my pockets?

[Proculation]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

Proculation Proculation:

That's why it works.

Where does it work?

Ever time it fails you remind us of the changing agenda but I don't call the present situation a sign of success.

Economic cycles are totally normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_cycles