[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

If you're so confident Let's see the poll that says Canadian favor legalization over decriminalization?

I showed you 3 headlines from different political leaning media outlets that refute your claim

Look at the article!



You believe this refutes my claim? I showed you the article that YOU posted which supports it!

Classic.

[Curtman]

Your second article about a forum research poll in November 2012.. Again shows Legalization out front, followed by Decriminalization, followed by the status-quo..

Strike 2.

3rd article talks about the same forum research poll, showing Legalization first, decriminalization second, status-quo third.

Strike 3.

[Freakinoldguy]

Curtman Curtman:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

If you're so confident Let's see the poll that says Canadian favor legalization over decriminalization?

I showed you 3 headlines from different political leaning media outlets that refute your claim

Look at the article!



You believe this refutes my claim? I showed you the article that YOU posted which supports it!

Classic.

You just can't accept the fact that your claim is wrong.

Your interpretation of the numbers is mind boggling. 26% favor decriminalization, 20% want it left the same, 11% think your dope smoking ass should be put in jail for a longer period and 2% probably didn't understand the question which comes to a grand total 59% but, only 40% support legalization which mean that a majority of the polled people have refuted your claim that a majority of Canadians support legalization.

Classic my ass. Keep tying though because I'm sure high times has done a poll that supports your position.

[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Curtman Curtman:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

If you're so confident Let's see the poll that says Canadian favor legalization over decriminalization?

I showed you 3 headlines from different political leaning media outlets that refute your claim

Look at the article!



You believe this refutes my claim? I showed you the article that YOU posted which supports it!

Classic.

You just can't accept the fact that your claim is wrong.

Your interpretation of the numbers is mind boggling. 26% favor decriminalization, 20% want it left the same, 11% think your dope smoking ass should be put in jail for a longer period and 2% probably didn't understand the question which comes to a grand total 59% but, only 40% support legalization which mean that a majority of the polled people have refuted your claim that a majority of Canadians support legalization.

Classic my ass. Keep tying though because I'm sure high times has done a poll that supports your position.

We'll go slow, and just look at the first column.



The "sample" row is metadata, it tells you the sample size (how many people were asked).

The top row represents the sum of rows 2 and 3, incase that is what is confusing you. The total is 100%, not 165%.

40% support legalization -vs- 26% support decriminalization.

Together they make 66% supporting some kind of reform.
20% think the the way things are is ok.
11% think penalties should increase
2% Don't know, don't care.

66 + 20 + 11 + 2 = 99 (Rounding error)

Understand? Or still mind boggled?

[Lemmy]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You just can't accept the fact that your claim is wrong.

Your interpretation of the numbers is mind boggling. 26% favor decriminalization, 20% want it left the same, 11% think your dope smoking ass should be put in jail for a longer period and 2% probably didn't understand the question which comes to a grand total 59% but, only 40% support legalization which mean that a majority of the polled people have refuted your claim that a majority of Canadians support legalization.

Classic my ass. Keep tying though because I'm sure high times has done a poll that supports your position.

The problem with your line of thinking, FOG, is that when we're talking about peoples' rights, majority doesn't rule. The whole point, when we're talking about issues of individual rights, is protecting minority rights against the tyranny of the majority. If only 1 person out of 30 million wants to be free to do something that harms no one else, that's enough. That one person doesn't need the approval of the other 29,999,999.

[Freakinoldguy]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You just can't accept the fact that your claim is wrong.

Your interpretation of the numbers is mind boggling. 26% favor decriminalization, 20% want it left the same, 11% think your dope smoking ass should be put in jail for a longer period and 2% probably didn't understand the question which comes to a grand total 59% but, only 40% support legalization which mean that a majority of the polled people have refuted your claim that a majority of Canadians support legalization.

Classic my ass. Keep tying though because I'm sure high times has done a poll that supports your position.

The problem with your line of thinking, FOG, is that when we're talking about peoples' rights, majority doesn't rule. The whole point, when we're talking about issues of individual rights, is protecting minority rights against the tyranny of the majority. If only 1 person out of 30 million wants to be free to do something that harms no one else, that's enough. That one person doesn't need the approval of the other 29,999,999.

I'm not talking about peoples rights which is a whole other issue. What i'm talking about is clearly incorrect and outrageous subliminal claims being made that a majority of Canadians favor legalization of marijuana which, when you look a the numbers isn't true at all.

According to the poll only 40% actually favor "legalization" and the other 59% (and don't ask me where the 1% went) want something else. What I don't understand is why is it so hard for some people to actually hoist in the numbers staring them in the face because a blind man could see that his numbers aren't a majority.

[Freakinoldguy]

Curtman Curtman:

We'll go slow, and just look at the first column.



The "sample" row is metadata, it tells you the sample size (how many people were asked).

The top row represents the sum of rows 2 and 3, incase that is what is confusing you. The total is 100%, not 165%.

40% support legalization -vs- 26% support decriminalization.

Together they make 66% supporting some kind of reform.
20% think the the way things are is ok.
11% think penalties should increase
2% Don't know, don't care.

66 + 20 + 11 + 2 = 99 (Rounding error)

Understand? Or still mind boggled?

I will give you this. According to this survey a majority of people polled favor legalization over decriminalization but, not a majority of Canadians according to this same poll making your blanket statement the most intransigent thing I've ever read.

$1:

Curtman Wrote
It's a plus for JT because every demographic in every jurisdiction of Canada supports legalization. some more than others

Another of your fables couched in double speak to make the result look how you legalization hacks want it to look. You can either support legalization or you oppose it because anything else isn't support or opposition it's nothing. So for clarifications sake please explain the last part of the statement. What does "some more than others mean"? Does it mean jurisdictions which means certain areas support it more than others which, would make sense.


Who cares how many people were polled. The number is irrelevant because there can only be 100% of the people polled or in this case 99% for some reason. So where do you come up with the 165%, especially since I didn't say anything about that percentage.

But one last time. 66% is the percentage of people who favor either decriminalization or legalization. Good so far?

Then when that's broken down again it becomes 40% favor legalization and 26% favor decriminalization but the way you've couched your statements you've tried to make it look like a majority of Canadians favor legalization which if this poll is anywhere near accurate is blatantly false and explains why the headlines didn't read "Majority of Canadians favor Legalization".

[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But since we're getting insulting. Could you put down the bong and think.

I wasn't being insulting at all. You said your mind was boggled by your own link, I only helped unboggle it a bit.

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But one last time. 66% is the percentage of people who favor either decriminalization or legalization. Good so far. Then when that's broken down again it becomes 40% favor legalization and 26% favor decriminalization but the way you've couched you statements you've tried to make it look like a majority of Canadians favor legalization which if this poll is anywhere near accurate is blatantly false and explains why the headlines didn't read. Majority of Canadians favor Legalization.

You said:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But, since we're discussing what societies mainstream thinks could you please post the mainstream news link and poll you have that says people support legalization over decriminalization because the ones I found don't say that at all.

Give people a choice of

A) War on drugs (The Marijuana version)
B) No war on marijuana

What would they pick overwhelmingly?

If you assume people who support decriminalization do not support legalization, you still lose the plurality as a prohibitionist.

If you ask simply, do you support legalization:

$1:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/47901/most-americans-and-canadians-are-ready-to-legalize-marijuana/

a majority of Canadians (57%) and Americans (54%) support the legalization of marijuana.

Most respondents in each Canadian region back the legalization of cannabis, including 64 per cent of Atlantic Canadians and 60 per cent of British Columbians.

In the United States, respondents in the Northeast (61%) have the highest level of support for legalizing marijuana, while those in the South hold the lowest (51%).

In Canada, men (64%) are more likely than women (50%) to call for the legalization of cannabis, while there is no wide gender gap in the United States (55% male, 53% female).

The bulk of support for legal marijuana comes from respondents aged 18-to-34 in the United States (65%) and those aged 35-to-54 in Canada (61%).

[Lemmy]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I'm not talking about peoples rights which is a whole other issue. What i'm talking about is clearly incorrect and outrageous subliminal claims being made that a majority of Canadians favor legalization of marijuana which, when you look a the numbers isn't true at all.

According to the poll only 40% actually favor "legalization" and the other 59% (and don't ask me where the 1% went) want something else. What I don't understand is why is it so hard for some people to actually hoist in the numbers staring them in the face because a blind man could see that his numbers aren't a majority.

Well you two can argue away at the numbers if you want, but it's an irrelevant argument. 99% of Canadians can favour criminalizing homosexuality again but that doesn't give the government the authority to do it.

[Curtman]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Well you two can argue away at the numbers if you want, but it's an irrelevant argument. 99% of Canadians can favour criminalizing homosexuality again but that doesn't give the government the authority to do it.

Its the context of the topic though.

You have to go back to Page 3 for this..

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

It will be interesting to see if this bit of his "platform" actually wins him votes. It seems like a bit of whimsy/fluff to talk about legalizing pot but, perhaps, some Liberal Party focus group has seen that we've crossed some sort of threshold and that the topic might get some traction, next election. I'm a little doubtful but you never know ...

Your probably right. The people he's targeting with this speil are the ones who don't get off the couch to got to the bathroom, let alone vote.

If he wants to make progress on this issue he's going to have to find a way to appeal to the middle class or what's left of it and make it palatable for that family with 2.5 kids, split level home in the suburbs and a dog named shep to vote yes to drugs.

A tough sell when parents have to be worried about their little darlings smoking dope bought at the Gov't dope store by some pervert in a trench coat like they do with alcohol.

And yes, I know kids can get dope now but, that doesn't mean their parents think they do since every parent's kid is an honour student, even the ones who used to toke up or still do for recreation.

So good luck Mr. Trudeau because I don't think Canada is ready to legalize marijuana just yet. Decriminalize it maybe but, not legalize it.

Everything he talks about here, kids buying dope from guys in trench coats and what-not.. Happens now under prohibition. It's the result of years of "this is your brain on drugs" commercials that gives people the idea that they have the right to punish people for doing something to themselves that they don't like.

The last part though is what I chose to respond to. He's wrong.

[Lemmy]

It's still an irrelevant argument. Decriminalizing pot is no more constitutional that prohibiting it. And 95% of people don't understand the difference between legalization and decriminalization well enough to favour one over the other.

[Freakinoldguy]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I'm not talking about peoples rights which is a whole other issue. What i'm talking about is clearly incorrect and outrageous subliminal claims being made that a majority of Canadians favor legalization of marijuana which, when you look a the numbers isn't true at all.

According to the poll only 40% actually favor "legalization" and the other 59% (and don't ask me where the 1% went) want something else. What I don't understand is why is it so hard for some people to actually hoist in the numbers staring them in the face because a blind man could see that his numbers aren't a majority.

Well you two can argue away at the numbers if you want, but it's an irrelevant argument. 99% of Canadians can favour criminalizing homosexuality again but that doesn't give the government the authority to do it.

Then how did the Government keep the homosexuality laws on the books for so long if they had no authority to do it? They may not have had a moral right to do so but by the definition of democracy and majority rule they had a legal one.

$1:

Definition of DEMOCRACY
1
a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2
: a political unit that has a democratic government
3
capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts>
4
: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5
: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

So just because one person or a million feel persecuted doesn't mean that the Government is legally obliged to accommodate them so I don't see where you're going with this but I'm sure you're going to tell me.

[Curtman]

Lemmy Lemmy:

It's still an irrelevant argument. Decriminalizing pot is no more constitutional that prohibiting it. And 95% of people don't understand the difference between legalization and decriminalization well enough to favour one over the other.

That's what I'm saying. But polling says that more of them favour regulation than favour decriminalization. So it's not 95%, people are paying attention to the debate. All sorts of health care and justice professionals are advocating regulation now, people are listening.

[Freakinoldguy]

Lemmy Lemmy:

It's still an irrelevant argument. Decriminalizing pot is no more constitutional that prohibiting it. And 95% of people don't understand the difference between legalization and decriminalization well enough to favour one over the other.

Then it's time to stop the double speak from both sides of the equation and put it out there once and for all with an explanation of exactly what each term means. But the only way they'll be able to put unbiased facts about the subject to the people is if they don't allow either side to put out bullshit on the subject before people can make an informed decision.

They'll then need to have some type of arbitrator or middle man that's agreed on by both sides to explain it to the people who don't understand difference.

All situations which are almost impossible to create and if you look at the last Quebec Referendum you'll see what I mean about misinformation and pseudo facts being used to further a specific agenda and in this case it's both pro and anti doing it.

[Lemmy]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Then how did the Government keep the homosexuality laws on the books for so long if they had no authority to do it? They may not have had a moral right to do so but by the definition of democracy and majority rule they had a legal one.

That was before the Charter. There used to be lots of unconstitutional laws. Now there are fewer.

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

So just because one person or a million feel persecuted doesn't mean that the Government is legally obliged to accommodate them so I don't see where you're going with this but I'm sure you're going to tell me.

You're mischaractizing the term accommodate. You are not accommodating me by not penalyzing me for possessing pot. If 99% of Canadians wanted a law that prohibited Orientals from attending public school, could the government pass such s law?