[MacDonaill]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Like Lemmy stated regionalism plays or played a larger role in someone's accent. It wasn't that long ago you could tell which area of London someone was from based on their accent, and on a larger scale which part of England or the UK. The examples you listed, such as Boston are prime examples of regionalism. Outside of these smaller linguistic enclaves/states and even within, people lack these regional accents. The same can be said about Newfoundland and northern and southern accents across western Canada.

You are stating nothing but the obvious, and are not even contradicting anything I have argued. Obviously, people in different regions speak differently, even within the same country. That's been established; that's a given.

All I'm saying is that the Canada-US border has acted and still does act as a dialectic barrier between neighbouring regions.

Based on the documentation I have furnished on the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which is an empirically observable and well documented speech phenomenon in the Northern US Great Lakes region affecting vowel pronunciation in those cities while not affecting any Canadian city's local speech despite geographic proximity to the affected US regions, I don't think that you or anyone else on this board are well placed to attempt to refute that. It's a linguistic reality.

Unless you are able to furnish documentation refuting the existence of the vowel shift, I don't think we have much more to discuss on the matter and I think I've proven my point.

Congratulations, you've convinced yourself.

No, empirical studies have convinced me. I'm not so sure what has you convinced, nor of what.

But I guess things like well documented facts don't risk convincing someone who's already made up his mind a priori.

[EyeBrock]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Like Lemmy stated regionalism plays or played a larger role in someone's accent. It wasn't that long ago you could tell which area of London someone was from based on their accent, and on a larger scale which part of England or the UK. The examples you listed, such as Boston are prime examples of regionalism. Outside of these smaller linguistic enclaves/states and even within, people lack these regional accents. The same can be said about Newfoundland and northern and southern accents across western Canada.

In Manchester, I can tell within about 3 or 4 miles where somebody is from. The accent has subtle changes and the slang varies from locale to locale. I'm sure you can still do the same in London. While I was working in a particular part of Manchester my accent shifted from my own to a Longsight/Levenshulme version which is very distinctive and harsher than my native accent.

While I was in the military my accent toned down, as did everybody elses, basically so we could understand each other.

I find accents very interesting. Although there are variations in North America, they are nowhere near as pronounced as in the UK and Eire. That's why Brit's/Aussies etc have a hard time pinning Canadian and US accents down, the changes (besides the obvious NFLD/US southern accent) are much more incremental than in the UK.

Go ten miles in England and you will get huge variations in accent and slang used. Remember, many local slang words are derivative of older languages such as Norse, Old English, archaic German, Gaelic etc.
The accent shifts are also indicative the political boundaries of old kingdoms and fiefdoms within the UK.

Even now, when a few of us ex-pats get together at work, the Canadians have a hard time understanding us as we will talk much quicker and pepper our language with words rarely used here.

The differences extend further in my written reports as I will routinely use words that are barely ever used in Canada, not to make a point but that's the words flying around in my head!
The English language in the UK is just a bit more flowery than the NA version. I like the differences but I’ll still use a few ‘weird’ words to keep my own distinctive brand of the language alive.

[ShepherdsDog]

nec scire fas est omnia.

[EyeBrock]

I did Latin but I had to Google that one but I agree Shep.

[MacDonaill]

Can't argue with that. (Can't pronounce it either.)

[Regina]

My comments on accents came from a speech and language pathologist.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Like Lemmy stated regionalism plays or played a larger role in someone's accent. It wasn't that long ago you could tell which area of London someone was from based on their accent, and on a larger scale which part of England or the UK. The examples you listed, such as Boston are prime examples of regionalism. Outside of these smaller linguistic enclaves/states and even within, people lack these regional accents. The same can be said about Newfoundland and northern and southern accents across western Canada.

You are stating nothing but the obvious, and are not even contradicting anything I have argued. Obviously, people in different regions speak differently, even within the same country. That's been established; that's a given.

All I'm saying is that the Canada-US border has acted and still does act as a dialectic barrier between neighbouring regions.

Based on the documentation I have furnished on the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which is an empirically observable and well documented speech phenomenon in the Northern US Great Lakes region affecting vowel pronunciation in those cities while not affecting any Canadian city's local speech despite geographic proximity to the affected US regions, I don't think that you or anyone else on this board are well placed to attempt to refute that. It's a linguistic reality.

Unless you are able to furnish documentation refuting the existence of the vowel shift, I don't think we have much more to discuss on the matter and I think I've proven my point.

No, actually you haven't. The border does nothing to stop dialectic influences. Please tell me how there is no influence when for the better part of 25 years, anywhere I travelled in Canada I was asked if I was from the US?
You'd be truly amazed how much more you can learn by not solely relying on the internet and actually travelling to other places, besides Buffalo.
Go to Windsor, then Detroit. You'll find a LOT of vowel shifting in BOTH cities.
Cop souds like cap, pop sounds like pap.
Also, my post was mainly about Windsor and Niagara Falls. Windsor is ONE short mile from Detroit, but yeah, I guess that magic river that doubles as a border prevents ANY sort of cross border speech patterns

[MacDonaill]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Like Lemmy stated regionalism plays or played a larger role in someone's accent. It wasn't that long ago you could tell which area of London someone was from based on their accent, and on a larger scale which part of England or the UK. The examples you listed, such as Boston are prime examples of regionalism. Outside of these smaller linguistic enclaves/states and even within, people lack these regional accents. The same can be said about Newfoundland and northern and southern accents across western Canada.

You are stating nothing but the obvious, and are not even contradicting anything I have argued. Obviously, people in different regions speak differently, even within the same country. That's been established; that's a given.

All I'm saying is that the Canada-US border has acted and still does act as a dialectic barrier between neighbouring regions.

Based on the documentation I have furnished on the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which is an empirically observable and well documented speech phenomenon in the Northern US Great Lakes region affecting vowel pronunciation in those cities while not affecting any Canadian city's local speech despite geographic proximity to the affected US regions, I don't think that you or anyone else on this board are well placed to attempt to refute that. It's a linguistic reality.

Unless you are able to furnish documentation refuting the existence of the vowel shift, I don't think we have much more to discuss on the matter and I think I've proven my point.

No, actually you haven't. The border does nothing to stop dialectic influences. Please tell me how there is no influence when for the better part of 25 years, anywhere I travelled in Canada I was asked if I was from the US?
You'd be truly amazed how much more you can learn by not solely relying on the internet and actually travelling to other places, besides Buffalo.
Go to Windsor, then Detroit. You'll find a LOT of vowel shifting in BOTH cities.
Cop souds like cap, pop sounds like pap.
Also, my post was mainly about Windsor and Niagara Falls. Windsor is ONE short mile from Detroit, but yeah, I guess that magic river that doubles as a border prevents ANY sort of cross border speech patterns

Look, I'm sure wherever you're from having been to Detroit is considered being well-travelled. I don't care to dispute that. However, I really do not see the point in continuing this argument unless you can back your claims up with some third party documentation; otherwise, it remains nothing but anecdotal here-say.

You want to assert that the border in no way acts as a dialectic frontier, then prove it with more than just saying you lived in a border town for 20 years. Cite something. At least I have.

What I cited has been placed on the Internet for your convenience, but it reflects years of research and study on the subject. If you want to see it book form, I invite you to visit a university library on your next trip to fucking Detroit (wowwwww... Detroit Never been there before...).

It's not because you've been to Detroit that you are well placed to knock down years worth of linguistic research, especially when you have absolutely NOTHING empirical to corroborate your assertion. You have presented nothing but what you claim to have witnessed as a layperson driving around Buffalo and Detroit.

I'm ready to read anything you have to truly rebut my very reasonable remark, namely that the border can and does act as a line of dialectic demarcation, however significant or insignificant. That's all I've said here. Doesn't seem like it should send you into a blind rage.

I have not said, by the way, that there is no room for cross-border influence. Of course there is. Speech can be influenced across oceans these days, but the border does act as a cut-off for many regional differences, including but not limited to the one I have pointed out (the Northern Cities Vowel Shift).

[martin14]

Brenda Brenda:

My aunt has been living in Canada for over 50 years. She moved to Vancouver as an adult. You'd think, that after such a long time, her English would have gotten better, and her Dutch would have been forgotten, since she married a Canadian man, and raised her kids using only one language, and that wasnt Dutch.
Lemme tell ya... Her English was SO bad, her daughter had to translate it for me in understandable English, and her Dutch was even worse.
I don't understand it. I am sure I have an accent, but I am also pretty sure it is not as thick as hers!

Funny, my parents English is letter perfect after they stopped with Dutch.
Accents gone too.

My mother can't speak Dutch anymore, can barely read or write it now.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

Look, I'm sure wherever you're from having been to Detroit is considered being well-travelled. I don't care to dispute that. However, I really do not see the point in continuing this argument unless you can back your claims up with some third party documentation; otherwise, it remains nothing but anecdotal here-say.

Look, I'm sure that wherever you're from you're considered well educated cuz you can read. I don't care to dispute that. It only remains anecdotal heresay to YOU because you think that cuz you've been to Detroit and Buffalo for a few hours and heard the accent, it backs up what you read.

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

You want to assert that the border in no way acts as a dialectic frontier, then prove it with more than just saying you lived in a border town for 20 years. Cite something. At least I have.

Well I'm pretty sure I did when I mentioned other places BUT, you can stick yer nose in a book all you want, it doesn't replace ACTUAL experience. Sorry but what you read will never convince me that what I experienced didn't actually happen

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

What I cited has been placed on the Internet for your convenience, but it reflects years of research and study on the subject. If you want to see it book form, I invite you to visit a university library on your next trip to fucking Detroit (wowwwww... Detroit Never been there before...).

Obviously you THEN never spent anytime in Windsor before or after because instead of trying to be an arrogant smart mouth, you'd know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. But yer right, I should totally discount all my personal experience there and other places because of what you read

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

It's not because you've been to Detroit that you are well placed to knock down years worth of linguistic research, especially when you have absolutely NOTHING empirical to corroborate your assertion. You have presented nothing but what you claim to have witnessed as a layperson driving around Buffalo and Detroit.

And lived in the cities right beside them as well you doorknob. I know it must be hard to read with your head shoved up your ass. Oh, and let's not forget Southern Manitoba where several residents have a bit of the northern mid-west US yankee twang creep into their speech. And of course I guess you didn't bother paying attention to to the part involving northern Vermont and Quebec backed up by another? Nahhh you'd rather be a smart mouthed little troll and and make smart comments about me being in Detroit and Buffalo. Tell ya what, come talk to me after you've actually been somewhere, put some years under yer feet, and experienced REAL life, instead of what you read in a book. Oh and ummm it doesn't take a layman to hear people in BOTH border cities say "pap" for pop and "cap" for cop. It just takes the ability to HEAR. It's amazing what you won't hear in a book.

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

I'm ready to read anything you have to truly rebut my very reasonable remark, namely that the border can and does act as a line of dialectic demarcation, however significant or insignificant. That's all I've said here. Doesn't seem like it should send you into a blind rage.

Hmmm blind rage. Let's see, I came on here, posted my personal experiences then you come on and not only tell me what I experienced was incorrect, but insult me in the process. All I suggested was going to Windsor AND Detroit, Buffalo AND Niagara Falls, spend time in those cities and you'd see what I mean. It's YOU that decided you were going to "educate" me in how wrong I am because you read in a book somewhere... And you obviously weren't paying attention when I agreed the similarities are becoming more disparate because yer too busy getting your panties in a bunch telling me I'm wrong.

I

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

have not said, by the way, that there is no room for cross-border influence. Of course there is. Speech can be influenced across oceans these days, but the border does act as a cut-off for many regional differences, including but not limited to the one I have pointed out (the Northern Cities Vowel Shift).

Well no shit. All of that for you to FINALLY see the point. I never said that there was NO difference in speech pattern and vowel shift. I said there were many similarities. And I hate to break it to you yet again, spend time in Detroit and Windsor, then Buffalo and Niagara Falls and you'll hear the same vowel shift occurring. Sorry but the border doesn't magically remove the vowel shift, especially from those cities. And insulting me doesn't change that.
One day, when you get older, you'll see that "empirical data" can sometimes be a poor replacement for experience. You obviously haven't been up to speed on the so-called empirical data with regards to AGW. Oh and one more area I recall now as well, Michigan's U.P. They actually sound more Canadian than American, or more precisely, more Northern Ontarian than American.

But wait, let's play the empirical data game. There have been tons of studies showing that immersion into a language will eventually cause most people to learn that langauge. Well the same would obviously apply to speech patterns and linguistics, as has been shown by the several examples that were posted. Now, take a population of 200,000 Canadians, put them 1 mile from an American city, bombard them with American TV and radio, especially back in the days before cable when the ratio of Detroit to Windsor TV stations available without an outdoor antenna was 7:1. On a REAL good day or if you lived in a high-rise, the ratio would change a bit to 11:3 but that ratio included stations from Toledo and Cleveland, and CKCO and one other Canadian station, GLOBAL I think. Then, consider that Windsor is 2 1/2 hours from the nearest major Canadian city, what do you THINK Windorites are going to sound like??
And with the advent of cable TV, THAT is why I agreed with the assertion that the similarities are becoming more disparate. But you just keep on reading about it, I'll continue to travel(and yes, to places OTHER than Detroit) and while you have fun with your work-a-day world for the next 40 years, I'll try and remember you while I relax on a nice sun-soaked beach.

[MacDonaill]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Well I'm pretty sure I did when I mentioned other places BUT, you can stick yer nose in a book all you want, it doesn't replace ACTUAL experience.

Saying you've been somewhere is not citing a source. I don't doubt that you've had any personal experience. But since I don't know you and have no reason to believe anything you say, it would be customary for you to get third-party documentation to corroborate your claims.

$1:

I never said that there was NO difference in speech pattern and vowel shift. I said there were many similarities.

What you said was, and I quote...

$1:

The border does nothing to stop dialectic influences.

Which is a claim you have yet to back up. Telling me to go spend 20 years oscillating between Detroit and Widnsor is not giving proof. It's just facile rhetoric. Do you think denigrating the ability to check one's observations with third-party documentation (or, as you might more commonly refer to it, "book learnin'") serves to increase your credibility in a debate? I don't think so.

$1:

And I hate to break it to you yet again, spend time in Detroit and Windsor, then Buffalo and Niagara Falls and you'll hear the same vowel shift occurring. Sorry but the border doesn't magically remove the vowel shift, especially from those cities.

I am actually very anxious to see some proof of that, when everything out there seems to suggest the contrary. And that includes both what is available in documentation AND what I happen to have noticed when spending time in ALL the places you have mentioned. And please realise that we are talking about the general tendencies in these cities. It's not because a certain pronunciation is associated with a certain area that every single person is going to talk like that. Nor would it be prudent to assume that just because you've heard what you seem to think is something reminiscent of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift in some speakers in Windsor and Niagara Falls that this goes to negate the research done on the matter.

Moreover, your example of 'cop' sounding like 'cap' is *not* an example of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which is a specific and well defined phenomenon only affecting a specific set of vowel sounds.

Attempting to paint a picture of me as some kind of shut-in bookworm just because I'm able to cite actual sources to back up what I say instead of just shooting my mouth off isn't going to change anything and it's just a pathetic attempt to gain the high ground in a debate you effectively lost several posts ago. I have lived in three countries and speak several languages so don't think you can talk down to me because you've been over the border a few times, okay.

[Arctic_Menace]

Since this is starting to veer slightly off topic, I'm here to say that I think it's a safe assumption to claim that Canada indeed has culture.