[USCAdad]

grainfedprairieboy grainfedprairieboy:

You've both taken this to the extreme to defend a position. Nowhere has she advocated rape.

She has made it pretty clear that how you dress and conduct yourself, right or wrong, is how others will/should treat you.

If you want to dress up and act like a lesser-valued member of society such as a biker, pimp, homeless person, liberal or drug pusher you should be prepared to deal with the negative perceptions you deliberately are trying to solicit.

This is the fundamental difference. I prefer biker/rebel to conformist. Vonegut said, "You are who you pretend to be, so be careful of who you pretend to be." I prefer thigh highs to sweats, baggy sweaters and minivans. I believe rebels, and free thinkers are greater assets to society... each to their own.

[USCAdad]

Persiana Persiana:

I don't know what kind of world you might live in, but where I live "slut" is not a complimentary term.

A very very different one from the one you live in.... I got out.

[Persiana]

And I believe that one doesn't have to dress a certain way to be a rebel or a free thinker. I do believe though, that certain modes of dress will create certain impressions upon the public eye, and treatment will follow accordingly. I used to be goth, now because of my job I dress semi-formal. Vast difference in treatment, although my opinions haven't changed... I'm still very much a rebellious free thinker.

[Persiana]

USCAdad USCAdad:

Persiana Persiana:

I don't know what kind of world you might live in, but where I live "slut" is not a complimentary term.

A very very different one from the one you live in.... I got out.

Well then you have my sincere condolences. The image you just gave me is that of a man who cannot look for the positive in anything he perceives to be negative.

You assume I am a "average normal conformist" yet you are the one taking the 'conformist' viewpoint in this argument, interestingly enough. Which of us do you really think is the 'free thinker' ?

You assume I am "average society person" and perceive that state as one that needs escaping. Instead of sticking it out to find what positive things it possibly has to offer, you took a cowards route & ran from that which displeased you... tell me, when your current life path displeases you, are you going to run again? 20 years from now you may find yourself looking back on where you're at today and saying "I got out" in regards to your current situation.

[Hardy]

lily lily:

You seem to be forgetting - it's not only the "slutty girls" getting raped/assaulted. Grannies in nursing homes and other regular women probably get attacked with greater frequency.

In the 1998 survey by the US National Institute of Justice, of the rape victims surveyed, 22% had been raped before they were age 12. Must be those slutty "Hello Kitty" and "My Little Pony" sort of outfits that are the cause.

[Persiana]

lily lily:

Funny - that doesn't show at all. You appear to be advocating conformity.

Like I said in my previous post, which you seem to have missed. There's a LOT that you miss, isn't there Lily?

One does not have to dress a certain way to be a rebel or a free thinker.

Again, you are the one with the "majority" perspective in this particular debate. I would definitely represent the minority, in voicing my opinion that women need to take far more control of their destinies instead of placing the blame on their circumstance everywhere but themselves. FAR too few women look at their lives, and look at how they could have prevented things from happening. Its far too easier to tout the weak female fanfare & put the blame with the man.

Nevermind that the woman was dressed like a slut. Nevermind that she walked unescorted to her car. Nevermind that her ass was hanging out of her skirt. Nevermind that she completely ignored the reality that we live in. No, she has no control, no responsiblity over her own destiny, she couldn't possibly have presented a more positive image of herself in public, she couldn't possibly have asked a security guard to escort her to her car, she couldn't possibly have locked her doors & windows while at home alone. No, she's the helpless female... that on weekends, goes out to demand equal rights.

I say bullshit. If women want equal rights they need to stop falling back on the "weak female" crap whenever it suits them, and accept responsibility for their own life, for their own destiny, for their own situations.

Typical weak female that you are Lily, you keep putting all the blame on the man. NOWHERE have I said that none of the blame lies with them.

[Persiana]

lily lily:

You seem to be forgetting - it's not only the "slutty girls" getting raped/assaulted. Grannies in nursing homes and other regular women probably get attacked with greater frequency.

Go back and check Hardy's stats. Most women are raped by people they know... so there goes your "first impressions" theory.


Besides which... rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Men don't rape the women they're attracted to.

I'm not forgetting at all. The point I am trying to make is the very same one you're getting at.

PEOPLE PREY UPON THOSE THEY PERCEIVE TO BE WEAK.

Who are these people? Well, the elderly are one, yes. But aging isn't a choice. Clothing on the other hand IS. Dressing like a skank comes across as having low self-esteem & little self-respect. Its easy enough to make a victim of someone who is already one by their own choice of lifestyle. A woman who is a whore & entertains many men nightly, is far less likely to be believed when she cries rape, than one who doesn't give herself out at every turn. Get it yet?

Just like you said, most women are raped by people they know. And many of these girls are either known to have low self-esteem, known to be defenseless, or known to be sluts. Get it yet?

You're right, rape is about power. Power over the powerless. This is what I"ve been trying to drill into your thick skull all evening. Women are NOT powerless! Women DO have the choice to control their own destiny. Women DO have the choice to put forth a much more positive image, one that shows that they are empowered, and comfortable in their skin, and not afraid to draw attention if attacked. Women DO have the choice to ask security guards to escort them to their cars at night, women DO have the choice to lock their doors and windows.

WHY then, are these women who demand equality, at the same time crying helpless when something does happen to them? ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN LIFE.

Get it yet?

[USCAdad]

Persiana Persiana:

USCAdad USCAdad:

Persiana Persiana:

I don't know what kind of world you might live in, but where I live "slut" is not a complimentary term.

A very very different one from the one you live in.... I got out.

Well then you have my sincere condolences. The image you just gave me is that of a man who cannot look for the positive in anything he perceives to be negative.

You assume I am a "average normal conformist" yet you are the one taking the 'conformist' viewpoint in this argument, interestingly enough. Which of us do you really think is the 'free thinker' ?

You assume I am "average society person" and perceive that state as one that needs escaping. Instead of sticking it out to find what positive things it possibly has to offer, you took a cowards route & ran from that which displeased you... tell me, when your current life path displeases you, are you going to run again? 20 years from now you may find yourself looking back on where you're at today and saying "I got out" in regards to your current situation.

You're the one preaching first impressions. Which statement of yours in this thread should I take as pushing the norm? I see you very much arguing status quo. So you're actually a real rebel. I find that hard to discern from your previous posts... please elaborate.

I hope to continually grow and change. I would be mortified if in twenty years I still believed the same things that I do now. That doesn't mean that I will ever return to were I came from.... I won't.

[grainfedprairieboy]

USCAdad USCAdad:

grainfedprairieboy grainfedprairieboy:

You've both taken this to the extreme to defend a position. Nowhere has she advocated rape.

She has made it pretty clear that how you dress and conduct yourself, right or wrong, is how others will/should treat you.

If you want to dress up and act like a lesser-valued member of society such as a biker, pimp, homeless person, liberal or drug pusher you should be prepared to deal with the negative perceptions you deliberately are trying to solicit.

This is the fundamental difference. I prefer biker/rebel to conformist. Vonegut said, "You are who you pretend to be, so be careful of who you pretend to be." I prefer thigh highs to sweats, baggy sweaters and minivans. I believe rebels, and free thinkers are greater assets to society... each to their own.

Vonnegut also feels modern terrorists are "brave people" in their struggle with the West.

Again, she is not dismissing freethinkers. She is merely stating that people have a perception or prejudice if you will, of different groups and those who wish to be identified with these groups through their choices of clothing should not be surprised when they encounter the reactions they are deliberately soliciting.

[Persiana]

lily lily:

$1:

Typical weak female that you are Lily, you keep putting all the blame on the man.

Nice shot, Persiana.

If you read as carefully as you're instructing me to, you'll notice that I've said repeatedly that women can do several things to avoid being victims, starting with not acting like one. Be aware of your surroundings, make eye contact, try to avoid being alone in dark deserted areas.

That said - nothing I do or don't do gives any man the right to rape/assault me. I refuse to accept responsibility for someone else's bad behaviour.

And if YOU read as carefully as you're claiming you are, then you will see that NOWHERE have I advocated rape, and NOWHERE have I said that none of the blame lies with the man.

I'm JUST trying to say that women who get treated in a manner according to their own actions and behavior, really need to realize that there ARE things that they can do as preventative measures. And yes, I do feel that if a woman walks unescorted to her car, in a dimly lit underground parking lot, and she's parked on the far side, that IF she DOES get attacked, then yes she is partially responsible. She did have options available to her, to prevent such a thing from occuring, the major one being requesting an escort. As I said previously, we do not live in an age of ignorance.

[Persiana]

lily lily:

$1:

A woman who is a whore & entertains many men nightly, is far less likely to be believed when she cries rape, than one who doesn't give herself out at every turn. Get it yet?

Oh, I get it all right. You were born about 30 years too late. Gone are the days when a woman's sexual history excused her rapist.

I don't care what a woman does or how she acts. Even a whore can be raped, whether you think she deserves it or not is irrelevant.

Nowhere, am I EXCUSING her rapist.

[Persiana]

What about accepting blame for YOUR OWN actions?

[USCAdad]

Persiana Persiana:

PEOPLE PREY UPON THOSE THEY PERCEIVE TO BE WEAK.

Really? I know this is the case some of the time. Isn't it also the case that people react out of their own weakness? I think (I have absolutely nothing to back this up with) that many of these events happen because the rapist himself has low self esteem. Why do butch Lesbians get raped? Because they're perceived to be weak? Don't think so.

[Persiana]

I am trying to point out that women need to accept blame for their own actions.

If a woman walks to her car in a dimly lit underground parking lot, UNESCORTED then yes she has KNOWINGLY PUT HERSELF IN THAT POSITION.

I'm not saying this excuses her rapist, nor am I saying that its her fault the rapist raped her.

I AM saying that it is her fault that she put herself into a vulnerable position.

I AM saying that women have choices and preventative methods that they can take.

I AM saying that women who choose NOT to take these steps, are knowingly putting themselves in a position where they could get raped.

But no doubt "because they're female" they're what... too stupid to accept control of their own lives? They should be able to walk around, female, and unescorted, and make poor decisions, and not have consequences?

Damn.... if I could live life without consequence... what a life THAT would be.

[Persiana]

lily lily:

Persiana Persiana:

What about accepting blame for YOUR OWN actions?

You're right. I didn't realize how wrong it was to walk to my car all by myself.

Whatever was I thinking?

Clearly, you weren't thinking.

That's my point. We don't live in an age of ignorance. Like USCAdad pointed out, this IS our reality.

Obviously you would choose to be a victim, just to uphold your "I can be everything a man can be" ideals.... you would walk to your car by yourself. You would knowingly put yourself in a vulnerable position....

Good grief, I actually had some respect for you until now.