[Newsbot]

Title: MSF says damage at bombed Afghan hospital 'does not indicate a mistake' | CTV News
Category: World
Posted By: Guy_Fawkes
Date: 2015-10-18 13:48:54

[Guy_Fawkes]

My understanding, from a Vice article, was that the ANA called the air strike because they were receiving fire from the building.

[andyt]

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

I'd normally say no but, given that the Taliban would have no compunctions about killing the patients if they were surrounded and cut off what other recourse did they have?

Let them go? What if they stayed true to their history and didn't leave? They had a safe haven with ample supplies, willing accomplices and the ability to inflict pain and suffering at will on a captive audience which is exactly a siege mentality.

For the record they wouldn't have left peacefully because, if they'd have been willing to do that, they wouldn't have used a hospital for a shield in the first place.

I hate to say it but, those patients would have died one way or the other and it was just the time, method and number of people killed that's the question.

[andyt]

You're really saying the MSF doctors were being held hostage by the Taliban, and now have Stockholm syndrome and continue to deny it?

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

You're really saying the MSF doctors were being held hostage by the Taliban, and now have Stockholm syndrome and continue to deny it?

I never said that they had Stockholm syndrome. What I did say was that if the Taliban were inside the hospital and fired on the ANA they had to have accomplices and for the record I didn't specify that it was the doctors. Although since DWB's hasn't said one word about the Taliban it means someone is lying about what occurred and it can only be 1 or 3 groups. So, until we find out the truth if we ever do, it's all just supposition as to which one but as a betting man, my money is on someone in the ANA settling old debts or trying to discredit the Americans especially since because doctors don't normally call in airstrikes on themselves.

But, since your initial question was, if the Taliban were inside the hospital was the response appropriate and I answered that it was given the history and willingness of groups like the Taliban to use human shields.

[andyt]

MSF has straight out said there were no Taliban. So they must be lying. I'm not sure I understand their motivation to do so. OTOH, the people who called in the air strike or who did the bombing, their motivation would be obvious.

[Guy_Fawkes]

andyt andyt:

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

The Afghan military should be held accountable not the US. If a neighbour calls in a swat team on your house do you blame the swat team or the neighbour?

The ANA are not the best trained or equipped military and might not have known that the building was even a hospital. It is equally likely that the ANA didn't care and felt that suspicion of the enemy there was enough for it to be a target.

In any case, the US was responding to a request for a fire mission. The FAC probably didn't have all the information, but when you are under contact information is a luxury you do not always have.

As for the MSF calling this a war crime, nothing will come of it. The only group who could have deliberately targeted the hospital for the purpose of killing non-combatants would have been the Afghan National Army.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

If the Taliban are operating from the hospital then it becomes a legitimate military target in accordance with the 1954 revisions of the Geneva Conventions.

While the hospital is allowed to have armed guards the patients and visitors may not be armed on hospital grounds. Given the Tallywhackers don't care about such legal nuances I have no doubt that they were both armed and firing on uniformed Afghan troops from the hospital.

It also would not surprise me that DWB is not entirely neutral in the conflict.

Their behavior in the Chechnya uprising was similarly biased and the vast majority of their efforts took place in support of the radical Islamists.

[DanSC]

Let's also not forget that the current American policy is that all men of fighting age killed in air strikes are enemy combatants, regardless of what they are actually doing or their affiliations. Any male patients between around 16-45, and also the male physicians in that age range, are now killed enemy combatants.

Thanks Obama.

[desertdude]

DanSC DanSC:

Let's also not forget that the current American policy is that all men of fighting age killed in air strikes are enemy combatants, regardless of what they are actually doing or their affiliations. Any male patients between around 16-45, and also the male physicians in that age range, are now killed enemy combatants.

Thanks Obama.

Good policy. Don't have to worry about collateral damage, since everything is fair game. Changing shortly to anyone who is not a yank as an enemy combatant.

[DanSC]

desertdude desertdude:

DanSC DanSC:

Let's also not forget that the current American policy is that all men of fighting age killed in air strikes are enemy combatants, regardless of what they are actually doing or their affiliations. Any male patients between around 16-45, and also the male physicians in that age range, are now killed enemy combatants.

Thanks Obama.

Good policy. Don't have to worry about collateral damage, since everything is fair game. Changing shortly to anyone who is not a yank as an enemy combatant.

If they Yanks are on the Kill List, they're still combatants.

[andyt]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

andyt andyt:

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

The Afghan military should be held accountable not the US. If a neighbour calls in a swat team on your house do you blame the swat team or the neighbour?

The ANA are not the best trained or equipped military and might not have known that the building was even a hospital. It is equally likely that the ANA didn't care and felt that suspicion of the enemy there was enough for it to be a target.

In any case, the US was responding to a request for a fire mission. The FAC probably didn't have all the information, but when you are under contact information is a luxury you do not always have.

As for the MSF calling this a war crime, nothing will come of it. The only group who could have deliberately targeted the hospital for the purpose of killing non-combatants would have been the Afghan National Army.

MSF has repeatedly stated that they have given the co-ordinates of the hospital to the Americans and that the Americans were well aware it was a hospital. This does not seem to have been a mistake but a purposeful targeting of the hospital. Of course nothing will come of a war crimes investigation, since the US refuses to sign on.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

MSF has repeatedly stated that they have given the co-ordinates of the hospital to the Americans and that the Americans were well aware it was a hospital. This does not seem to have been a mistake but a purposeful targeting of the hospital. Of course nothing will come of a war crimes investigation, since the US refuses to sign on.

That the hospital was identified as a hospital is not in dispute. But what is in dispute is whether or not the Afghan government troops were taking fire from the hospital and to the best of my information that's what happened and after it was confirmed the hospital became a valid military target in accordance with international law.

In WW2 there occurred similar situations such as in Dresden. Dresden was declared a demilitarized 'Open City' and was therefore not a military target. But when the Allies learned that AA had been set up in Dresden to protect billets and war production facilities that had been set up in the city then Dresden became a valid military target.

My father-in-law lived in Heidelberg at the time and that city was also an open city and it was not bombed because unlike Dresden, the Germans never set up any military operations in Heidelberg.

Meaning that if you don't want your hospital to be bombed then it needs to be just a hospital at all times.

[Guy_Fawkes]

andyt andyt:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

andyt andyt:

So not a mistake but a purposeful bombing of the hospital? If Tabliban were present, is that enough of an excuse?

The Afghan military should be held accountable not the US. If a neighbour calls in a swat team on your house do you blame the swat team or the neighbour?

The ANA are not the best trained or equipped military and might not have known that the building was even a hospital. It is equally likely that the ANA didn't care and felt that suspicion of the enemy there was enough for it to be a target.

In any case, the US was responding to a request for a fire mission. The FAC probably didn't have all the information, but when you are under contact information is a luxury you do not always have.

As for the MSF calling this a war crime, nothing will come of it. The only group who could have deliberately targeted the hospital for the purpose of killing non-combatants would have been the Afghan National Army.

MSF has repeatedly stated that they have given the co-ordinates of the hospital to the Americans and that the Americans were well aware it was a hospital. This does not seem to have been a mistake but a purposeful targeting of the hospital. Of course nothing will come of a war crimes investigation, since the US refuses to sign on.

US intelligence had that information, but the Afghans, the AC-130 or the FAC might not have. Only way to prevent something like this would be to deny the ANA close are support. If you still want the ANA to fight and win against the Taliban, we have to support them.