[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= dino] <br />Canada a christian nation? Ummmmm no. That sounds stupid. Canada is so multicultural that calling it a Christian nation doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Not so stupid. Many religions have similar morals. Judaeism, Islam, Christianity even share the same basic book. THe morals that our society is based on are shared by many faiths. <br /> <br />Calling Canadian culture 'Christian' is no more wrong than calling it 'Buddihst'. <br /> <br />

[cathou79]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] (...) <br />Just because I support the traditional definition of marriage, does not mean that I don't want to see EVERYBODY (incl. you're community) treated equally under the law. It is not the same as mixed marriage relationships, Jesus was NEVER a racist!! <br /> <br />I don't think that God hates gays and lesbians, I just believe that he meant marriage to be between men and women, period. Sorry, I did not mean to offend either yourself or Cathou, but those are my beliefs. If you expect others to respect you're beliefs, values and lifestyles than you must show the same respect towards others even socially-conservative Christians. Opponents of same sex marriage are not bigots or fundamentalists, were regular people (just like you social-liberals) who only want to defend our religion and preserve our nation's values. <br />(...)[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />but like in every subject, we only tend to see those who are extremist. you say that those oppose same-sex marriage are not bigots, it's more exact that they are not all bigot, but you know that some are. Sad thing is that i dont know what the percentage is bigot and what percentage is not. we like to say that we are an open country, big i've seen the most horrific things, and heard thing that could be very hurtfull because the person i love is a girl. and in a such emotional subject, it's hard to separated those who oppose in respect, and those who oppose in hate

[michou]

self censored

[lesouris]

I admit, I may have gone overboard with my opinion, but you have to understand that for someone to tell me that I can't get married to the person I want because some people believe in some guy who said it was wrong thousands of years ago...that just makes me angry and, unfortunately, I have a tendency to speak (or type) before I think when I get angry. <br /> <br />However, Canada is not a Christian nation and the majority does not rule absolutely; minorities have rights. Why else would we need a Charter of Rights and Freedoms? <br /> <br />Christianity has played an important role in Canada's history, but Canada is neither officially nor legally Christian. Our laws do not come directly from the Bible and only from the Bible. Our ethics come from a collective sense of morality, which while being influenced by Christian values, has influence from other relgions, cultures, and ways of life (Christianity itself is a composite of other religions' values - Judaic, Pagan Semetic, Pagan European, Mithraic, Zoroastrian, et cetera). <br /> <br />Yes, a majority of Canadians say they're Christians in the census, but only a fraction attend church regularily. Are they true Christians? What about those Christians who don't accept that God inspired the Bible? Is there even a Christian religion or is it a group of related relgions? <br /> <br />There are a wide veriety of views out there, some people even believe Jesus might have performed a Same-Sex Blessing (between a Roman soldier and his servant) or was even gay himself (don't get me wrong, I personally find that highly unlikely). <br /> <br />I would suggest to everyone to go to this site, it has a lot of information on many religions, denominations, and beliefs: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org">here</a> <br /> <br />So I guess it's up to you: do you think Canada should be an inclusive society where all people are respected and given equal treatment? Or, do you think we should be an elitist society wherein it would be impossible for same-sex couples to join the "Marriage Country Club" because that would make others feel it was less exclusive and less important?

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] I admit, I may have gone overboard with my opinion, <br /> <br />So I guess it's up to you: do you think Canada should be an inclusive society where all people are respected and given equal treatment? Or, do you think we should be an elitist society wherein it would be impossible for same-sex couples to join the "Marriage Country Club" because that would make others feel it was less exclusive and less important?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Hey, it says a lot about what we're trying to build with Vive that no one flamed you back <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br />I would say the latter. Why? <br /> <br />I believe Canadian is a synonym for Compromise. If a minority wants all or nothing, the majority will see it gets nothing. If the minority is willing to understand the feelings of the majority and allow the definition of one word to remain intact, and thereby compromise, then they'll be met halfway. <br /> <br />Sorry. Just the way I feel. Nothing personal intended. <br />

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] I admit, I may have gone overboard with my opinion, <br /> <br />So I guess it's up to you: do you think Canada should be an inclusive society where all people are respected and given equal treatment? Or, do you think we should be an elitist society wherein it would be impossible for same-sex couples to join the "Marriage Country Club" because that would make others feel it was less exclusive and less important?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Hey, it says a lot about what we're trying to build with Vive that no one flamed you back <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br />I would say the latter. Why? <br /> <br />I believe Canadian is a synonym for Compromise. If a minority wants all or nothing, the majority will see it gets nothing. If the minority is willing to understand the feelings of the majority and allow the definition of one word to remain intact, and thereby compromise, then they'll be met halfway. <br /> <br />Sorry. Just the way I feel. Nothing personal intended. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes, but a majority of Canadians (I believe it is 53%) don't mind if you call it marriage or not. Factor into that that there is a large majority of people below the age of 55 (70% + I believe), and SSM is already called marriage in 6 provinces and 1 territory, it looks like SSM is here to stay, sorry <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Dino]

Also, in a recent poll not sure which but they showed that of the 50% that were opposed to gay marrige only 30% were strongly against it. The other 20% weren't completely against it.

[Kory Yamashita]

I said: <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Macdonald/Borden: <br /> <br />Canada is a christian nation? The last time someone said that to me, she was screaming in my face at 8am on a bus to UBC. Everyone on the bus started telling her we live in a non-secular state. <br /> <br />My family has been here over a hundred years, has laboured hard to make a living, has been systematically discriminated against, was stolen from by the Canadian government during WW2, was imprisoned by the Canadian government during WW2, had our citizenship revoked by the Canadian government, despite being born on Canadian soil. My family has suffered at the hands of this nation, and still we remain here to fight to improve it. And we are quite decidedly NOT Christian. If this is a Christian nation, does that make me less Canadian than you are? <br /> <br />And what are these progressive Christian values you are referring to? <br /> <br />Are you talking about the catholic church sending missionaries to Africa to brainwash the population there into believing that condoms are evil, even as the AIDS epidemic sweeps across the continent, devastating their people? <br /> <br />No wait. You must be talking about the values that force priests to suppress their sexual urges to such a point that they turn to raping 6 year old boys. <br /> <br /> <br />Now, you want to talk about gay marriage? Well since any church can conduct a marriage, any church should be able to decide for themselves who can be married. If you happen to belong to a religion that doesn't support your lifestyle, perhaps its time to look for a new religion. <br /> <br />I believe all people, regardless of colour or creed, or who they have sex with, should be treated equally. Gay marriage should be fully legal, but churches shouldn't be forced to marry gay couples. Some churches WILL marry gay couples, and all the more power to them. <br /> <br />I can't believe this is still an issue. The only people that are REALLY affected by gay marriage are gays who want to get married. So why on earth would anyone ever try to deny them that right? It's cultural imperialism to deny gays the right to marry.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />And you replied: <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] <br />OK Kory I am going to reply to you first because you found it necassary to insult the Catholic Church. The church's stance on contraceptives might be outdated, but they are hardly preaching to Africans to brainwash them. The Roman Catholic Church has 700 million followers world wide and is responsible for FAR more humanitarian aid to poor nations than ANY of the other faiths combined, THOSE ARE CHRISTIAN VALUES!! <br /> <br />Yes they did decide to enforce celibacy among priests, but it is hardly forcing most priests to assault young boys, you will find sick individuals like that in ANY profession, so do not even begin blaming that on our religion. I am sorry for what you're ancestors went through, but EVERY nation has made it's mistakes that hardly makes Canada an unprogressive nation. We have ugly mistakes in our past, like when every MP except John Diefenbaker (God Rest His Soul) voted to intern Japanese-Canadians, but we also have a LONG history since independence and even before independence in some ways of working to make everybody equal and of expanding and moving forward through compromise rather than conquest! Yes Canada is a progressive nation!!! <br />My ancestors were starved, cleansed and murdered back in Ireland way back when, but that doesn't mean I think England is a nation of savages. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />First of all, your dismissal of the Catholic Church's anti-contraceptive preachings in Africa is horrendous. Do you not understand that the African AIDS situation is almost certainly the worst epidemic of any kind that humanity has ever faced? And are you not aware that the Catholic Church is actively sending missionaries into remote villages under the pretext of being an outside authority to convince people not to use protection? This is genocide in the exact same way that European settlers committed genocide against the North American Aboriginals through the deliberate spread of the plague on blankets that were used for trade. I don't really care HOW much money you give to poor people if you are simultaneously committing genocide against them. <br /> <br />Next, I think you misinterpreted my intentions in recounting my family history. What I was saying is that my family has toiled and suffered at the hands of this country. And yet we are still here to continue to fight to improve it. So since this is a Christian country (as you profess) and I am not Christian, does that somehow make me a lesser citizen, despite what my people have contributed? <br /> <br />And your claim that this country was built by Christians is simply wrong. I live in the West. If it weren't for the thousands of Chinese labourers who received lesser wages and worked harder (and many died) than their Christian counterparts Canada as we know it would not exist. BC wouldn't even be a province. And did the Chinese work on the railroad from the East end too? Because if they did, then without them the railroad wouldn't have made it to Manitoba in time to squash Louis Riel's "revolution" and everything West of Ontario would probably be a separate nation (or part of the US - who knows?). <br /> <br />Now as for the priests situation. I believe that a priest is required to completely abstain from sex, including masturbation. It is also well-recognized that sex is natural. Even the Church's own logic would dictate such (how else would we reproduce? - an extension on the anti-gay-marriage argument that states that gay marriage is unnatural). And so the church is advocating the complete suppression of an absolutely primal urge, one that supercedes cognitive thought. And it is advocating this to the most absolute of believers, people whose entire livelihood revolves around a book written thousands of years ago. <br /> <br />Now, because of how guidance is given by example in this book "Thou shall not covet thy neighbour's wife", there are omissions ('thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's friend's six-year-old son'). And because the church advocates literal interpretations of the bible, this means that those omissions seem deliberate to the priest. <br /> <br />Now lets put that together: <br /> <br />Suppressed sexual urges + literal interpretation of bible = priests raping little boys <br /> <br />And yes, there are sick perverts in every profession. But what has come to light in the last few years is that there are a lot MORE sick perverts committing the EXACT SAME sick perverted act in the Catholic Church. And that, as I've explained above, is because the Church advocates literal interpretations of a book written in the form of narrative examples. <br /> <br />Now don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with Christianity. What I have a problem with is religious institutions that interpret 2000 year-old language by today's meanings and consequently misrepresent the original meaning of those words. I doubt Jesus would want to actively impede the use of contraceptives, yet the Church does just that. <br /> <br />I understand a person's right to believe whatever they want. But I think that right ends when it infringes upon someone else's rights. The Catholic church's professed beliefs are resulting in genocide in Africa, the systematic sexual abuse of young Catholic boys, and the social oppression of gays, lesbians, and the transgendered. These are clear examples of beliefs infringing on the rights of other people. The Church has no right to do that. <br /> <br />Gays have the right to get married if they can find a church that will recognize gay marriage. Little boys have a right to go to Sunday school without fear of sexual abuse. And Africans have the right to go about their daily lives without some preacher giving them bad advice that could easily kill them. <br /> <br />Now, I know this post will piss off a LOT of people. But before you slander me, go back and read it again slowly and actually consider my arguments.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] However, Canada is not a Christian nation and the majority does not rule absolutely; minorities have rights. Why else would we need a Charter of Rights and Freedoms? <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have just found a quote to back this up from Supreme Court Justice Iacobucci: <br /> <br /><i>"The concept of democracy means more than majority rule ... In my view, a democracy requires that legislators take into account the interests of majorities and minorities alike, all of whom will be affected by the decisions they make. Where the interests of a minority have been denied consideration, especially where that group has historically been the target of prejudice and discrimination, I believe that judicial intervention is warranted to correct a democratic process that has acted improperly." <br /> <br />IACOBUCCI J., Supreme Court of Canada <br />Vriend v. Alberta, 1998 <br /></i>

[Macdonald/Borden]

OK, where to start? First of all I found you're comments regarding the sexual abuse scandal, disgusting! That is a SMALL minority of priests who committed those acts, also I think it shows HUGE devotion towards you're religion to give up something all human's want, ie. sex. I couldn't do it, but somebody would have to be 110% devoted towards Christianity to do so. <br /> <br />Personally I think that idea of celibacy among priests is outdated and should be changed, but the church is slow to change and in a lot of ways thats a good thing! Most Catholics do not want our church to become the Church of England. Also I did not mean to ignore the AIDS situation in Africa, the church is NOT committing genocide. Their teachings in regards to contraceptives are not helpful towards the situation, but their spiritual comfort on the other hand is helping millions cope with losses. I know one day the church will change that position, probably in the near future but you have to understand it through our belief system. To more conservative Catholics contraceptive use prevents the creation of life and is therefore a sin! I disagree with this interpretation, but hey Im not the Pope! <br /> <br />Canada was a collective effort of many, BUT European Christians did found this nation, have played the major role and still make up the majority today. Besides that most of our culture and customs, though have become Canadian have there origins with French and British cultures and customs. That does not mean that you are any less Canadian than I my friend, as Dr. Caleb and myself have said repeatedly all major religions believe in the same morales, you do not have to follow one particuliar faith or even any faith to be a Canadian. But you should recognize the faith that the basic tenants of our value system come from! <br /> <br />If you have a problem with the Roman Catholic faith that is you're problem, but do not do demonizing my religion and twisting the facts, that is not right! Canada has a long history of respecting minority rights and compromising with minorities, but when a nation allows one particular minority to trample over the rights of the majority and start changing a nation's customs and values to something that there not than the nation loses part of itself! <br /> <br />Yes Asian Canadians have made a HUGE contribution to Canada, but that does not mean that the federal government should dip heavily into the public purse and seriously inconvenience the majority to make Canada trilingual and enforce Chinese on all services, signs and products! We have to find a balance between minority rights and multiculturalism and protection of majority rights and Canadian culture. <br /> <br />Now in response to Lesouris 53% of Canadians might currently support gay marriage, but as I said before those statistics have been rapidly changing back and forth in both directions over the past year or so, also remember that opinion polls are never 100% accurate! <br /> <br />I don't mind debating and discussing openly this issue and listening to the other side's opinion, however with the nation so clearly split and opponents of changing marriage from all political stripes feeling disenfranchised and alienated, we should have open debate before going ahead and forcing something radically society altering on Canada. It's horribly wrong and undemocratic, not to mention unCanadian for radically socially-liberal minded Judges and politicians to simply try and force this issue through with as little debate as possible. <br /> <br />This issue is splitting Canadians from all ideological camps, with opponents and supporters in both the Liberal and Conservative parties, even with a small (kind of timid <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> ) minority of opponents in the NDP split on the issue and not sure how to go forward. If our nation's founding fathers found a way to accomodate the interests of French and English, European and non-European, Catholic and Protestant, Christian and non-Christian Canadians over the years through compromises, than we can solve this issue the same way. <br /> <br />Just because judges with a certain political agenda have declared excluding same sex couples from marriage in 6 provinces and 1 territory does not mean that "gay marriage is here to stay". A word to the wise do not try and simply force the change of marriage without even giving Canadians a chance to oppose it, its not democratic and implementing radical changes in that manner NEVER has good consequences. <br /> <br />BTW, I think man here were confused by what I meant when I said Canada is a Christian nation, it hardly meant that all Canadians are Christian or that you have to be Christian to be Canadian, it only meant that Christianity is a fundamental aspect of Canadian culture and values.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] OK, where to start? First of all I found you're comments regarding the sexual abuse scandal, disgusting! That is a SMALL minority of priests who committed those acts, also I think it shows HUGE devotion towards you're religion to give up something all human's want, ie. sex. I couldn't do it, but somebody would have to be 110% devoted towards Christianity to do so. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes, because we all know priests aren't masturbating in the rectory ... <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> ... its a proven fact they are. Maybe not all priests, but a huge majority (after all, they are only human). I'd like to quote George Monbiot: <br /> <br />“Concerning the Pope's claim that homosexuality is ‘unnatural’. Perhaps the Pope is suggesting that it lies beyond the scope of ‘normal’ human behavior. If so, this has uncomfortable implications for an association of old men who wear dresses, hear voices and practice ritual cannibalism. Self-enforced celibacy is all but unknown among other animal species. If any sexual behavior is out of tune with the natural world, it is surely that of the priesthood.” <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]Personally I think that idea of celibacy among priests is outdated and should be changed, but the church is slow to change and in a lot of ways thats a good thing! Most Catholics do not want our church to become the Church of England. Also I did not mean to ignore the AIDS situation in Africa, the church is NOT committing genocide. Their teachings in regards to contraceptives are not helpful towards the situation, but their spiritual comfort on the other hand is helping millions cope with losses. I know one day the church will change that position, probably in the near future but you have to understand it through our belief system. To more conservative Catholics contraceptive use prevents the creation of life and is therefore a sin! I disagree with this interpretation, but hey Im not the Pope! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />If the Pope and the Church really cared for the poor and the suffering, why don't they sell their billions of dollars worth of treasures? Why does the leader of a religion that preaches humility and modesty live in a huge palace? Does Jesus care if the Tabernacle is made of gold or wood? Wouldn't Jesus prefer the wood? <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]Canada was a collective effort of many, BUT European Christians did found this nation, have played the major role and still make up the majority today. Besides that most of our culture and customs, though have become Canadian have there origins with French and British cultures and customs. That does not mean that you are any less Canadian than I my friend, as Dr. Caleb and myself have said repeatedly all major religions believe in the same morales, you do not have to follow one particuliar faith or even any faith to be a Canadian. But you should recognize the faith that the basic tenants of our value system come from! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />If all religions share the same values, then how do you know Canada is a Christian nation? And if Canada is a Christian nation, by your arguements, it would definately NOT be a Catholic nation since almost all the founders of our nation were Protestants many of whom hated Catholics just as much as they hated homosexuals (i.e. they were members of the Orange Order). The only fathers of Confederation that were Catholic were from Quebec, a province that today has rejected Catholicism on a large scale...do you know why? Because living 300 years under an oppressive heirarchy of hypocrites had taught them that they don't need an institution to think for them. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]If you have a problem with the Roman Catholic faith that is you're problem, but do not do demonizing my religion and twisting the facts, that is not right! Canada has a long history of respecting minority rights and compromising with minorities, but when a nation allows one particular minority to trample over the rights of the majority and start changing a nation's customs and values to something that there not than the nation loses part of itself! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I hardly see how extending rights to others is trampling on the rights of the majority. And isn't the whole point of having a multicultural democracy that we don't all share the same customs and values? <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]Yes Asian Canadians have made a HUGE contribution to Canada, but that does not mean that the federal government should dip heavily into the public purse and seriously inconvenience the majority to make Canada trilingual and enforce Chinese on all services, signs and products! We have to find a balance between minority rights and multiculturalism and protection of majority rights and Canadian culture.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Chinese is not an official language of Canada because, as you say, it would cost too much and not enough people speak it. However, extending marriage to all costs nothing (well, except some tax beneifts, but if they really cost so much, maybe opposite-sex couples shouldn't be allowed to marry legally either). <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]Now in response to Lesouris 53% of Canadians might currently support gay marriage, but as I said before those statistics have been rapidly changing back and forth in both directions over the past year or so, also remember that opinion polls are never 100% accurate! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Considering that a huge majority of people below the age of 55 support SSM (70%+), it would be illogical to claim SSM is just going to go away. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]I don't mind debating and discussing openly this issue and listening to the other side's opinion, however with the nation so clearly split and opponents of changing marriage from all political stripes feeling disenfranchised and alienated, we should have open debate before going ahead and forcing something radically society altering on Canada. It's horribly wrong and undemocratic, not to mention unCanadian for radically socially-liberal minded Judges and politicians to simply try and force this issue through with as little debate as possible. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I always found it ammusing and somewhat sad that socially conservative people accuse judges of being "activist" or "leftwing" simply because they enforce the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]This issue is splitting Canadians from all ideological camps, with opponents and supporters in both the Liberal and Conservative parties, even with a small (kind of timid <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> ) minority of opponents in the NDP split on the issue and not sure how to go forward. If our nation's founding fathers found a way to accomodate the interests of French and English, European and non-European, Catholic and Protestant, Christian and non-Christian Canadians over the years through compromises, than we can solve this issue the same way.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Actually, our "Founding Fathers" solved none of those problems, it was successive generations of Canadians who changed those inequalities. The issue has already been solved for the 85% of Canadians who live in provinces/territories where SSM is allowed. What was the compromise? We're not going to force churches to marry people if the couple doesn't conform to their religious standards. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]Just because judges with a certain political agenda have declared excluding same sex couples from marriage in 6 provinces and 1 territory does not mean that "gay marriage is here to stay". A word to the wise do not try and simply force the change of marriage without even giving Canadians a chance to oppose it, its not democratic and implementing radical changes in that manner NEVER has good consequences. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />So I guess the abolition of slavery, giving women the right to vote, and ending our racist immigration policies didn't have good consequences? They were all sudden decisions. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden]BTW, I think man here were confused by what I meant when I said Canada is a Christian nation, it hardly meant that all Canadians are Christian or that you have to be Christian to be Canadian, it only meant that Christianity is a fundamental aspect of Canadian culture and values. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />That's a contradiction, you're basically saying, "We let other people in our country, but the only way they fit in is if they're Christians." This is untrue.

[Kory Yamashita]

I said: <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita]I understand a person's right to believe whatever they want. But I think that right ends when it infringes upon someone else's rights. The Catholic church's professed beliefs are resulting in genocide in Africa, the systematic sexual abuse of young Catholic boys, and the social oppression of gays, lesbians, and the transgendered. These are clear examples of beliefs infringing on the rights of other people. The Church has no right to do that. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Macdonald/Borden replied: <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Macondald/Borden]Also I did not mean to ignore the AIDS situation in Africa, the church is NOT committing genocide. Their teachings in regards to contraceptives are not helpful towards the situation, but their spiritual comfort on the other hand is helping millions cope with losses. I know one day the church will change that position, probably in the near future but you have to understand it through our belief system.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Mac/Do: Yes I completely understand that it is THROUGH your belief system that a great attrocity is being committed in Africa. If your belief was that people shouldn't use condoms and you sent missionaries to Africa and said "Condoms will stop AIDS. However, a 2000 year old book can be interpreted as saying that we shouldn't use condoms," then I wouldn't have a problem. <br /> <br />But, the Vatican is telling Africans that condoms have tiny holes, that they dont' stop the HIV virus. According to a quote in the Guardian: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids." <br /> <br />THAT is genocide. <br /> <br />Read the whole article: <br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

[Macdonald/Borden]

Lesouris, I took a little bit of time to cool off before I started this reply to you're comments, or else I would have ended up expolding in an even worse overboard manner than you did! First of all my church has every right to keep our artifacts from thousands of years, I sort of feel like Im talking to one of those droopy eyed, Preby-Lutheran nuts who thinks that all us Jews and Catholics control the money, its making me a wee bit mad. <br /> <br />I wouldn't expect Muslims to sell off their holy shrines and artifacts, and I would be horrified if my church did the same. No Canada was NOT founded by Prods who hated us Catholics, they were the ones (like George Brown and his Clear Grits) who opposed forming Canada. It was prods like Sir John A. Macdonald who wanted to work with us Papists who founded Confederation, again it reminds me of you're ridiculous and completely untrue accusation of Hitler being a "Catholic fundamentalist", learn you're history. As for the occasions of sex attacks, it was horrible what happened and it was a mistake for the church to enforce celibacy back in 678 AD, BUT there have been even more teachers responsible for acts like that. I find you're generalizing attacks disturbing, may God have mercy. <br /> <br />Our Pope's palace and all of our other "treasures" are artifacts and beuatiful works of religious art, I know you agnositcs do not value things like that, but honestly you sound like an ignorant ass by making mean spirited comments like that. And yes Canada is actually a Catholic nation since Catholics are by FAR the dominant religious group, and going back to you're argument of the "fathers of confederation hating Catholics", one of the most important founding fathers and Sir John's handpicked successor, Sir John Thompson was our first Catholic Prime Minister. <br /> <br />The Tories (like their racist counterparts in England) were attached to the Orangemen before Sir John came around, but after he merged the English Tories with the French Parti Bleu it became a bilingual and bifaith party open to both Protestants and Catholics. It only briefly went back to being WASP oriented during the 1920s, 30s, 40s and 50s until Diefenbaker took charge. You obviously no NOTHING about Canadian history, or the Catholic church. I atleast thought I was debating with someone intelligent but you are trying to turn this debate into an attack on my faith. <br /> <br />It probably pisses you off, but yes we are the dominant religionin Canada, we are the largest faith in the world, and sorry but thye Roman Catholic church is here to stay, regardless of what bigots like you think! BTW, I do not think I am going overboard by calling you a bigot, you're generalizations and many of you're accusations were bigoted, but maybe you were just typing without thinking again!

[Macdonald/Borden]

Koryt, our church has also taught millions of children around the world to read and write and given them food and shelter. You'll find even teachers who teach horrible things, what can I say but there are bad eggs in every basket! But you can not by any stretch of the imagination blame my church for the genocide. If it was not for Mother England, Netherlands, Germany and other protestant empires than Africa never would have fallen behind the rest of the world and AIDS never would have become an epidemic. If those "Evangelical" monkeys like George W. actually put even 10% of what they put into the war in Iraq into AIDS research we would be WAY closer to a cure and in the short term better treatment. If corrupt regimes in African nations and corrupt paramilitaries and rebel armies did not steal foreign aid, than sick people would get the help they need. <br /> <br />Don't be simplistic!!!!!

[Macdonald/Borden]

Considering that a huge majority of people below the age of 55 support SSM (70%+), it would be illogical to claim SSM is just going to go away. <br /> <br />I laughed REALLY loud when I read that, just because you write a "statistic" doesn't mean it's true. It actually has to be the results of a real poll taken <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br />I have NEVER seen ANY poll that ssays anything remotely close to that, yes with Canadians under 55 there is more support for SSM, but it is hardly 70% or more? Honestly, I feel sorry for most SSM supporters whenever I talk to you guys, you spout liberal propaganda, twist facts, believe what you want to believe and sometimes even make stuff up. By far the largest age group in Canada are people who are 30-55, I haven't seen the most recent statistics, but as of a few months ago it was about 45% opposed, 49% in favour, hardly 70%+!!!