[Kory Yamashita]

Macdonald/Borden... first of all, we spout liberal propaganda? Unless I'm mistaken, you're the self-proclaimed Liberal party member here. And in the last week, the Liberal Party has actually done two things liberal (opened immigration up to unskilled workers and threatened the US with a trade war). <br /> <br />As to your reply to my last comment: you're avoiding the issue at hand. I'm not blaming the entire AIDS problem on the Catholic church. What I said is that the Catholic church is going into a region with a severe epidemic and making it worse. <br /> <br />I didn't claim that any groups or organisations were innocent of adding to the AIDS situation in Africa. I don't think that has anything to do with our discussion. <br /> <br />My point is that Catholic values are not always right, and this is especially so where sex is concerned. The value of non-contraceptives is wrong for two reasons: the spread of STD's and overpopulation. The value of completely celibate priests is wrong because it places them under great unnatural stresses that lends to an elevated number of them committing sexual assault against minors. And the value of banning gay marriages is wrong because it's none of your damn business how gay people conduct themselves. <br /> <br />If the church said "we don't believe in gay marriage and so we will not permit gay marriage in our churches" then I wouldn't really have a problem. I would disagree, but it's not really my business what Catholics do in a Catholic church. But when you try to legally deny people the right to do as they please when it has absolutely no effect on you, you are oppressing them. <br /> <br />Gay marriage is legal in BC and apparently in several other provinces. So far, the sky hasn't fallen, the earth hasn't opened a gaping crevice to hell, and the oceans haven't dried up. In fact, if it weren't for newspaper reports, you wouldn't have even noticed. <br /> <br />YOUR marriage (if you are married, that is) isn't any weaker now because some gay person got married. Gay marriage does NOT weaken the institution of heterosexual marriage. And if it does, then maybe your marriage needs some TLC regardless of what gay people do. <br /> <br />Honestly, banning gay marriage is just oppression for the sake of oppression. No one gains from it.

[Kish]

So, I guess it all boils down to the question: which statement is correct? <br /> <br />(a) Gays and lesbians should be treated the same as any other Canadadian as it is a fundimental human right. <br /> <br />or <br /> <br />(b) Government should not impose a definition of marriage upon my religion as freedom of religion is a basic Charter right. <br /> <br />I believe that the answer is (c) all of the above. <br /> <br />Marriage, as a legal institution defines how property is shared and disposed. It confers rights and obligations upon a couple. If we look at this aspect of marriage in isolation, then there is no question that banning same-sex marriage is discriminatory. <br /> <br />Different religions, however have different veiews regarding the status of same sex marriages (just as some have positions on marriage after divorce, sex outside of marriage, etc). Whether I beleive that these views are right or wrong is irrelevent to the functionning of these religions. If I have a fundimental difficulty with an individual religion (or Christian denomination), I will look elsewhere for spiritual guidance (I seem to recall a large number of Jedis appearing in the last Census). <br /> <br />The Constitution Act gives the federal government legal jurisdiction over marriage and divorce. Personally, I beleive that the feds should use this power and get rid of any definition of marriage and stick to rules regarding the rights and obligations of couples, regardless of makeup. <br /> <br />Leave the definition of marriage to individuals, who may use one provided by a religious demonination (some of which approove of gay marriage) - or not.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] Koryt, our church has also taught millions of children around the world to read and write and given them food and shelter. You'll find even teachers who teach horrible things, what can I say but there are bad eggs in every basket! But you can not by any stretch of the imagination blame my church for the genocide. If it was not for Mother England, Netherlands, Germany and other protestant empires than Africa never would have fallen behind the rest of the world and AIDS never would have become an epidemic. If those "Evangelical" monkeys like George W. actually put even 10% of what they put into the war in Iraq into AIDS research we would be WAY closer to a cure and in the short term better treatment. If corrupt regimes in African nations and corrupt paramilitaries and rebel armies did not steal foreign aid, than sick people would get the help they need. <br /> <br />Don't be simplistic!!!!![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Your forgetting Catholic France, Catholic Portugal, Catholic Belgium, and Catholic Spain also had huge empires in Africa, and they had far worse conditions then English colonies (especially Belgian colonies). <br /> <br />In fact it was Catholic Portugal who started the African foreign slave trade. <br /> <br />Unfortunately when the Catholic Church teaches, they brainwash. Trust me, 14 years in Catholic schools have taught me well. I was ostrasized because I was pro-choice, but luckily I found some others like me, people who felt uncomfortable in religion class, forced to write down their "opinions" on exams, but they weren't supposed to be your opinions, oh no, they were the opinions of the Catholic Church, and if you thought otherwise, you risked failing. <br /> <br />If you think the Church cares, you are seriously mistaken. As I said before, if they care so much, why don't they empty out their coffers for the people of the world? <br /> <br />The Pope is a lot like a dictator if you think about it. I mean first he has complete control of the Church (i.e. Infallibility). Secondly, he has a Cult of Personality (i.e. pictures of the Pope all over the place [I remember my Great Grandmother had many pictures of every Pope in her house going back to the 1920's]). Thirdly, resistance is not tolerated; so you don't like the Church? Well you're not allowed to receive the Host, you're told you're going to hell, and you may even be called a heretic! <br /> <br />Is that Church inclusive? No, absolutely not. DO they pretend to be? Yes. Yes of course. Jesus befriended prostitutes and tax collectors, and as his legacy, the Church is inclusive...well unless your a woman who wants to become a preist, a same-sex couple who wants to marry, a divorce(e), et cetera. <br />

[Kory Yamashita]

Kish, I like how you reduced the argument to two simple points. <br /> <br />(a) Gays and lesbians should be treated the same as any other Canadadian as it is a fundimental human right. <br /> <br />or <br /> <br />(b) Government should not impose a definition of marriage upon my religion as freedom of religion is a basic Charter right. <br /> <br /> <br />And I agree that both arguments have great validity. However, I think that EQUALITY is the trump card. That is, I believe that people should be granted equal rights. So you can have your rights to religion right up until they impose on someone else's equal rights. We would never allow a religion that committed human sacrifice to practice that right on others in Canada. And similarly, if religious people want the right to marriage, they should be willing to grant that same right to all others. <br /> <br />I don't think there's much argument supporting the banning of ALL marriage - just gay marriage. And that's the problem. It's discriminatory because it undermines the equality of rights.

[Macdonald/Borden]

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Macdonald/Borden... first of all, we spout liberal propaganda? Unless I'm mistaken, you're the self-proclaimed Liberal party member here. And in the last week, the Liberal Party has actually done two things liberal (opened immigration up to unskilled workers and threatened the US with a trade war). <br /> <br />First of all Kory you should learn you're proper definitions of Liberalism and Conservatism. I am a member of the Liberal Party, but I am also proudly a conservative because I am a nationalist and I believe in preserving not only the independence of my nation, but also the culture, customs and values which I value highly. Not everybody in the Liberal Party is socially-liberal or even for that matter, economically-liberal. Technically the Conservatives are economically liberal. <br /> <br />I am a member of the Liberal Party because I do agree with certain parts of Paul Martin's agenda and politically I have found it is the best place for myself and the many others in the party who share my ideas to express those ideas. Also you say that a "trade war" is a Liberal "thing"??? It was always the Liberals who supported free trade and us Conservatives who opposed it. But now, like MANY other Canadians I am a small-c conservative in the Liberal Party. <br /> <br />Again I said that the Catholic Church is doing alot of good in the third world, but could be doing some things differently! <br /> <br />Now as to Lesouris, "If you think the Church cares, you are seriously mistaken. As I said before, if they care so much, why don't they empty out their coffers for the people of the world?" <br />Do you ever think before you say something? <br /> <br />As I said before my church should not and does not have to sell off our beautiful works of art and ancient artifacts, they are cultural as well as spiritual assets to us all. I would not expect Muslims to strip their mosques of their gold and diamonds, or Jews to start auctioning off parts of the Wailing Wall on Ebay. Just because Protestant Christian churches are bland and tasteless doesn't mean that ours have to be. Also we are still doing more, by a huge margin to help the developing world than any other faith. <br /> <br />Also we are advancing the cause of democracy. It was our church that has been an irreplacable asset in the fall of tyranical communist and fascist regimes world wide - Poland and El Salvador are two great examples. "The Pope is a lot like a dictator if you think about it. I mean first he has complete control of the Church (i.e. Infallibility). Secondly, he has a Cult of Personality" <br />You're ignorance never ceases to astound me!!! It now feels like Im talking to some buggy eyed, Jahovah's Witness trying to attack the Papacy! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <br /> <br />First of all he is no dictator, we give him supreme power over church policy because he is Jesus Christ's representatitve on Earth, a little more important than the ministers on the Presbyterian Council of Elders!!! <br />We adore him because he is the successor to St. Peter, look I can tell that you're one of those agnostic nuts who loves to attack religion and the mother church, but by ignoring the great things accomplished by not only my particular faith but also by others and by twisting the facts to attack my religion's values, you are only making a fool out of yourself! <br /> <br />My church does except homosexuals into our congregation, and preaches that God loves all of us! But we do not support warping marriage into something it is not and God never intended it to be! End of story! <br /> <br />Anyway Lesouris this is supposed to be a debate on marriage, not me defending my faith against you're blantant bigotry! This is getting tiresome and repetative!

[Macdonald/Borden]

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Macdonald/Borden... first of all, we spout liberal propaganda? Unless I'm mistaken, you're the self-proclaimed Liberal party member here. And in the last week, the Liberal Party has actually done two things liberal (opened immigration up to unskilled workers and threatened the US with a trade war). <br /> <br />First of all Kory you should learn you're proper definitions of Liberalism and Conservatism. I am a member of the Liberal Party, but I am also proudly a conservative because I am a nationalist and I believe in preserving not only the independence of my nation, but also the culture, customs and values which I value highly. Not everybody in the Liberal Party is socially-liberal or even for that matter, economically-liberal. Technically the Conservatives are economically liberal. <br /> <br />I am a member of the Liberal Party because I do agree with certain parts of Paul Martin's agenda and politically I have found it is the best place for myself and the many others in the party who share my ideas to express those ideas. Also you say that a "trade war" is a Liberal "thing"??? It was always the Liberals who supported free trade and us Conservatives who opposed it. But now, like MANY other Canadians I am a small-c conservative in the Liberal Party. <br /> <br />Again I said that the Catholic Church is doing alot of good in the third world, but could be doing some things differently! <br /> <br />Now as to Lesouris, "If you think the Church cares, you are seriously mistaken. As I said before, if they care so much, why don't they empty out their coffers for the people of the world?" <br />Do you ever think before you say something? <br /> <br />As I said before my church should not and does not have to sell off our beautiful works of art and ancient artifacts, they are cultural as well as spiritual assets to us all. I would not expect Muslims to strip their mosques of their gold and diamonds, or Jews to start auctioning off parts of the Wailing Wall on Ebay. Just because Protestant Christian churches are bland and tasteless doesn't mean that ours have to be. Also we are still doing more, by a huge margin to help the developing world than any other faith. <br /> <br />Also we are advancing the cause of democracy. It was our church that has been an irreplacable asset in the fall of tyranical communist and fascist regimes world wide - Poland and El Salvador are two great examples. "The Pope is a lot like a dictator if you think about it. I mean first he has complete control of the Church (i.e. Infallibility). Secondly, he has a Cult of Personality" <br />You're ignorance never ceases to astound me!!! It now feels like Im talking to some buggy eyed, Jahovah's Witness trying to attack the Papacy! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <br /> <br />First of all he is no dictator, we give him supreme power over church policy because he is Jesus Christ's representatitve on Earth, a little more important than the ministers on the Presbyterian Council of Elders!!! <br />We adore him because he is the successor to St. Peter, look I can tell that you're one of those agnostic nuts who loves to attack religion and the mother church, but by ignoring the great things accomplished by not only my particular faith but also by others and by twisting the facts to attack my religion's values, you are only making a fool out of yourself! <br /> <br />My church does except homosexuals into our congregation, and preaches that God loves all of us! But we do not support warping marriage into something it is not and God never intended it to be! End of story! <br /> <br />Anyway Lesouris this is supposed to be a debate on marriage, not me defending my faith against you're blantant bigotry! This is getting tiresome and repetative!

[Macdonald/Borden]

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Macdonald/Borden... first of all, we spout liberal propaganda? Unless I'm mistaken, you're the self-proclaimed Liberal party member here. And in the last week, the Liberal Party has actually done two things liberal (opened immigration up to unskilled workers and threatened the US with a trade war). <br /> <br />First of all Kory you should learn you're proper definitions of Liberalism and Conservatism. I am a member of the Liberal Party, but I am also proudly a conservative because I am a nationalist and I believe in preserving not only the independence of my nation, but also the culture, customs and values which I value highly. Not everybody in the Liberal Party is socially-liberal or even for that matter, economically-liberal. Technically the Conservatives are economically liberal. <br /> <br />I am a member of the Liberal Party because I do agree with certain parts of Paul Martin's agenda and politically I have found it is the best place for myself and the many others in the party who share my ideas to express those ideas. Also you say that a "trade war" is a Liberal "thing"??? It was always the Liberals who supported free trade and us Conservatives who opposed it. But now, like MANY other Canadians I am a small-c conservative in the Liberal Party. <br /> <br />Again I said that the Catholic Church is doing alot of good in the third world, but could be doing some things differently! <br /> <br />Now as to Lesouris, "If you think the Church cares, you are seriously mistaken. As I said before, if they care so much, why don't they empty out their coffers for the people of the world?" <br />Do you ever think before you say something? <br /> <br />As I said before my church should not and does not have to sell off our beautiful works of art and ancient artifacts, they are cultural as well as spiritual assets to us all. I would not expect Muslims to strip their mosques of their gold and diamonds, or Jews to start auctioning off parts of the Wailing Wall on Ebay. Just because Protestant Christian churches are bland and tasteless doesn't mean that ours have to be. Also we are still doing more, by a huge margin to help the developing world than any other faith. <br /> <br />Also we are advancing the cause of democracy. It was our church that has been an irreplacable asset in the fall of tyranical communist and fascist regimes world wide - Poland and El Salvador are two great examples. "The Pope is a lot like a dictator if you think about it. I mean first he has complete control of the Church (i.e. Infallibility). Secondly, he has a Cult of Personality" <br />You're ignorance never ceases to astound me!!! It now feels like Im talking to some buggy eyed, Jahovah's Witness trying to attack the Papacy! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <br /> <br />First of all he is no dictator, we give him supreme power over church policy because he is Jesus Christ's representatitve on Earth, a little more important than the ministers on the Presbyterian Council of Elders!!! <br />We adore him because he is the successor to St. Peter, look I can tell that you're one of those agnostic nuts who loves to attack religion and the mother church, but by ignoring the great things accomplished by not only my particular faith but also by others and by twisting the facts to attack my religion's values, you are only making a fool out of yourself! <br /> <br />My church does except homosexuals into our congregation, and preaches that God loves all of us! But we do not support warping marriage into something it is not and God never intended it to be! End of story! <br /> <br />Anyway Lesouris this is supposed to be a debate on marriage, not me defending my faith against you're blantant bigotry! This is getting tiresome and repetative!

[cathou79]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] Considering that a huge majority of people below the age of 55 support SSM (70%+), it would be illogical to claim SSM is just going to go away. <br /> <br />I laughed REALLY loud when I read that, just because you write a "statistic" doesn't mean it's true. It actually has to be the results of a real poll taken <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br />I have NEVER seen ANY poll that ssays anything remotely close to that, yes with Canadians under 55 there is more support for SSM, but it is hardly 70% or more? Honestly, I feel sorry for most SSM supporters whenever I talk to you guys, you spout liberal propaganda, twist facts, believe what you want to believe and sometimes even make stuff up. By far the largest age group in Canada are people who are 30-55, I haven't seen the most recent statistics, but as of a few months ago it was about 45% opposed, 49% in favour, hardly 70%+!!![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />depend of where you live in canada : <br /> <br /><a href="http://http://www.legermarketing.com/documents/spclm/040525Eng.pdf">http://www.legermarketing.com/documents/spclm/040525Eng.pdf</a> <br /> <br />and priest celibacy have nothing to do with sex. The catholic clergy have always been close to it's money. a priest that can date a girl, must married her, and with marriage, come children. and what come with children ? Inheritance... <br /> <br />for me, church dont have a damn word to say in that, because every single law pass on that have always clearly stated that the freedom of religion must be respected and that you can force any church to perform a SSM, nor it can be accused of discrimination because they dont want to do that. SSM have always and will always be a question of legal marriage in a courthouse in front of a judge. <br /> <br />but even if SSM is legal in 7 province, people seems unconfortable with the idea. i remeber well the face that i've seen last years qhen me and my girlfriend gone the "salon de la mariée de montréal" <br /> <br /> <br />

[Calumny]

What's this about religions practising human sacrifice not being allowed? Oh, geez... <br /> <br />Wouldn't worry about it much...we're all headed to hell anyway. <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.yourgoingtohell.com">LastStopHell.com</a> <br /> <br />I couldn't remember what Jesus had to say about homosexuality, so I googled around and found the above. <br /> <br />But, couldn't find anything thoughts on the matter attributed to Jesus. Oh, well. <br /> <br />I personally don't have a problem with civic marriages for gays who wish to formalize their commitment. <br /> <br />However, it must be recognized that most churches will not perform marriage ceremonies for those who do not practise the doctrines espoused by the church, e.g., if I, as an Anglican, wished to be married in a Catholic church and ceremony because I thought the stained glass windows were nifty, I'd have a problem. Similarly, if I was a long-time non-practising Catholic who abruptly decided I wanted a church ceremony, I might also have a problem. <br /> <br />If we're talking civic marriage, this should be a non-issue as there are no valid civic reasons to refuse gay marriage. <br /> <br />If we're talking a perceived right for gays to be married within a religion that does not condone homosexuality, the government has no right to intervene. <br /> <br />

[Kish]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] If we're talking a perceived right for gays to be married within a religion that does not condone homosexuality, the government has no right to intervene. <br /> <br /> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Agreed. And if gays and lesbians want to be married in a church that does condone same sex marriage (the United Church, I beleive), then government has no right to intervene (i.e. with a contrary definition). <br /> <br />The sole role of government is to ensure that the rights and obligations of one partner to another are upheld. It is not the role of the state to stray from the secular.

[Macdonald/Borden]

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Macdonald/Borden... first of all, we spout liberal propaganda? Unless I'm mistaken, you're the self-proclaimed Liberal party member here. And in the last week, the Liberal Party has actually done two things liberal (opened immigration up to unskilled workers and threatened the US with a trade war). <br />[/QUOTE] <br />First of all Kory you should learn you're proper definitions of Liberalism and Conservatism. I am a member of the Liberal Party, but I am also proudly a conservative because I am a nationalist and I believe in preserving not only the independence of my nation, but also the culture, customs and values which I value highly. Not everybody in the Liberal Party is socially-liberal or even for that matter, economically-liberal. Technically the Conservatives are economically liberal. <br /> <br />I am a member of the Liberal Party because I do agree with certain parts of Paul Martin's agenda and politically I have found it is the best place for myself and the many others in the party who share my ideas to express those ideas. Also you say that a "trade war" is a Liberal "thing"??? It was always the Liberals who supported free trade and us Conservatives who opposed it. But now, like MANY other Canadians I am a small-c conservative in the Liberal Party. <br /> <br />Again I said that the Catholic Church is doing alot of good in the third world, but could be doing some things differently! <br /> <br />Now as to Lesouris, "If you think the Church cares, you are seriously mistaken. As I said before, if they care so much, why don't they empty out their coffers for the people of the world?" <br />Do you ever think before you say something? <br /> <br />As I said before my church should not and does not have to sell off our beautiful works of art and ancient artifacts, they are cultural as well as spiritual assets to us all. I would not expect Muslims to strip their mosques of their gold and diamonds, or Jews to start auctioning off parts of the Wailing Wall on Ebay. Just because Protestant Christian churches are bland and tasteless doesn't mean that ours have to be. Also we are still doing more, by a huge margin to help the developing world than any other faith. <br /> <br />Also we are advancing the cause of democracy. It was our church that has been an irreplacable asset in the fall of tyranical communist and fascist regimes world wide - Poland and El Salvador are two great examples. "The Pope is a lot like a dictator if you think about it. I mean first he has complete control of the Church (i.e. Infallibility). Secondly, he has a Cult of Personality" <br />You're ignorance never ceases to astound me!!! It now feels like Im talking to some buggy eyed, Jahovah's Witness trying to attack the Papacy! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <br /> <br />First of all he is no dictator, we give him supreme power over church policy because he is Jesus Christ's representatitve on Earth, a little more important than the ministers on the Presbyterian Council of Elders!!! <br />We adore him because he is the successor to St. Peter, look I can tell that you're one of those agnostic nuts who loves to attack religion and the mother church, but by ignoring the great things accomplished by not only my particular faith but also by others and by twisting the facts to attack my religion's values, you are only making a fool out of yourself! <br /> <br />My church does except homosexuals into our congregation, and preaches that God loves all of us! But we do not support warping marriage into something it is not and God never intended it to be! End of story! <br /> <br />Anyway Lesouris this is supposed to be a debate on marriage, not me defending my faith against you're blantant bigotry! This is getting tiresome and repetative!

[Macdonald/Borden]

Why aren't me responses getting posted????

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] Why aren't me responses getting posted????[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />As I said in the other thread you started, you're deleting the /QUOTE tag. Quit doing that and they will be displayed. I just added it for you here as well. Please ensure your posts are valid before hitting submit.

[whelan costen]

<br /> While I agree with your post above,Macdonald/Borden just one correction, in fact the Pope no longer has complete control over the Church or it's policy, because of some very bad political dealings inside the Vatican, he has been rendered 'nonpowerful' but the people en mass do fully respect his authority and follow his teachings, because we believe they are spiritually inspired by the authority of his position, infused through the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. He is obliged to speak out on matters of moral wisdom as he sees fit, and so he should, we as practicing Catholics, follow freely, there is no cult aspect or reason to follow except free will. <br /> <br />The government has the right to marry according to secular law, but in no way has the right to impose the law on the Church, nor should it. The Catholic Church has never condemned a person because of their sexual orientation, in fact all Catholics know and declare we are all sinners and all sinners are welcome, but the Church does condemn sins. There is a difference. So I applaud you Macdonald/Borden (although you have no obligation to do so), for your taking a stand and defending the Catholic Church, for many attacking is much easier than defending their faith. <br /> <br />Every religion that includes humans as it's members, will have faults, but that doesn't make the teaching false, only the teacher.

[cathou79]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] (...) The Catholic Church has never condemned a person because of their sexual orientation, in fact all Catholics know and declare we are all sinners and all sinners are welcome, but the Church does condemn sins. There is a difference. (...)[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />?????????????? <br /> <br />sure, they dont condemn homosexual, just us as abobination to god, that's a lot better <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br />the priests that i've met in my life was condamning me basing their view on the church policy...