[Gunnair]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Trudeau and his merry band of assholes scrapped out Bonaventure (our last carrier) just weeks after she went though a major refit costing mega millions. This set the standard for subsequent Liberal governments to cancel much needed Armed Forces procurements after spending a king's ransom on them, first. They used to make political Brownie points that way with an idiotic underclass in this country that used to keep them in power, no matter what.

I'll certainly agree Trudeau wasn't a friend of the military, but he gave Canadians what they wanted, so in theory, the blame really lands on us (well those of voting age in the 70s) not on peacenik politicians.

And besides, the Conservatives of that era weren't much better. Mulroney promised all sorts of things like new tanks, nuclear subs, a massive ice breaker, a dozen new and bigger frigates then reneged when presented with the bill.

Yep...

No Polar 8
No Trafalgar/Rubis class
No Provincial class Destoryer

Frigates yes because there was absolutely no choice - the rust out was getting that bad.

But yes, everyone whines and places the blame on Trudeau and the Liberals. The blames lies squarely on the public and the voters who could have screamed for spending on defence but did not. As you say, Trudeau did what the voters hired him to do, and that did not include maintaining the military.

Harper, on the other hand, stated his goal of a robust military and the voters voted him in and he has not done it. Beyond that, his gutting of VAC and vet benefits is downright disgusting.

Harper is far far worse than Trudeau.

[Jabberwalker]

The blames lies squarely on the public and the voters who could have screamed for spending on defence but did not.

That is in fact correct and nothing much has changed apparently. The country with the longest coastline of any other, on three oceans, does not think about it's geographic situation at all. The Americans have covered our defences for so long, we assume that they will always be there for us, be a "benign" neighbour and remain interested in defending this huge, empty mass that we claim as ours.

[Winnipegger]

One thing that really bugs me was the Harper promise to replace our Frigates. Navy ships are designed for a 60 year lifespan, with major refit every 20 years. Halifax class Frigates were just comissioned in the early 1990s, and they were best in the world for their size at the time. There's no way you could justify scrapping them.

[Gunnair]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

One thing that really bugs me was the Harper promise to replace our Frigates. Navy ships are designed for a 60 year lifespan, with major refit every 20 years. Halifax class Frigates were just comissioned in the early 1990s, and they were best in the world for their size at the time. There's no way you could justify scrapping them.

60 years? Are you serious? Where on Earth did you get that number ?

40 years is about 10 years too long depending on the difficulty of maintaining systems because eventually they don't make spares anymore and you need to tool up and fabricate them yourselves which is very very expensive or you do entire rebuilds which are also very very expensive.

[Jabberwalker]

Someone explain to them how harsh an environment the ocean is? The air itself is full of electrolytes and it is corrosive and destructive without a ship even going anywhere.

By the way, warships are designed for a 25 year lifespan and in Canada we traditionally give them two major re-fits to stretch that out to about 40 years. They are totally obsolete shells at that point and they have usually had the living crap beaten out of them, no matter how well made they are. The Paraguayan navy operates 60 year old ships. Canada operates some 45 year olds ... much to our shame. it is a tribute to the members of our Armed Forces at just how adept they are at wringing extra decades out of systems that have gone a generation (or more) past their sell-buy dates (See Sea King Helicopters).

[Winnipegger]

Gunnair Gunnair:

60 years? Are you serious? Where on Earth did you get that number ?

From DND.

This means our destroyers too. They were commissioned in the 1970s. Their first refit was the early 1990s. Their second refit is scheduled now, or the early part of this decade. That means they are scheduled for retirement in early 2030s. Frigates are scheduled for their second refit then; retirement in early 2050s.

Values my family taught to me when growing up: take care of what you have, or you don't deserve to get anything. And don't throw it out because some salesman says so. Salesmen will always try to sell you something you don't need. They will try to convince you that which you have is bad, throw it away then pay him to re-purchase the exact same thing. A simple home example: don't buy milk past its expiry date. However, when in your fridge, don't throw it out as soon as the expiry date is reached. It's usually perfectly good for some time beyond that date. Smell it. You can smell when milk turns bad. As long as it doesn't smell bad, continue to use it. Of course, once it is past its printed expiry date, smell it every time before pouring into your coffee.

Yes, this does apply to navy ships. A steel hull is a steel hull is a steel hull. The design hasn't changed, there isn't a new bow design that makes previous ships obsolete. And weapons on our frigates and destroys have been updated so many times that there isn't anything newer. Refit: clean any rust. Replace any bolts or nuts that have rusted. Fresh coat of paint. Replace electronics because they get obsolete so damn fast: new radios, new radar, new sonar, new computers. Replace bed sheets and light bulbs. Give the engines a complete overhaul. All mechanical equipment gets a complete overhaul. And it's good until its next refit.

Here's a simple principle that Winnipeg has a problem with: don't re-purchase what we already have, instead add to it by purchasing something we don't already have. Winnipeg replaced our arena and stadium. When Glen Murray was a councillor, he campaigned to not replace our arena, but renovate the one we had. That would be half the price, better location, better parking, and as large as the arena in Toronto. The renovation plan included completely replacing the roof and stands. But no, some businessmen manipulated all 3 levels of government to give them money. The old arena was destroyed, the new one is even smaller than our old arena, it's downtown so all the problems with downtown parking and traffic, and we taxpayers had to shell out. Recently our stadium was replaced. The old stadium only need new bathrooms and concessions: $50,000 total. But some businessman con'ed the politicians to give him millions to build a new stadium way out at the southern edge of the city. For all that money we could have built an LRT. Winnipeg is the largest city in North America with no rapid transit at all. Oh, this year they built "bus rapid transit", which is just a bus with a dedicated road for part of its route. We could have had a real LRT! And another deal: one businessman bought a rail yard the CP wanted to sell. He offered to sell it to the city at cost. CP was pissed, they didn't want the city to get any of their land. But instead, he gave the land for free, ripped up and sold the rails. That land already had rails, with road crossings. It was perfect for our first LRT. Put all this together: we could have renovated our arena and stadium, leaving a much larger arena than we have now. And built a real LRT. And all this for less than all three levels of government paid.

So now the Conservatives want to scrap our frigates and destroyers, re-purchase the same thing. We had 4 destroyers before Harper was elected, now we have 3. The current plan would leave us with 3 destroyers, and the same number of frigates. Instead we could refit them, and refit our two AOR ships. Then build a third AOR, but the third would be built with a dual-acting hull so it's a heavy icebreaker and able to cross deep ocean. And a separate roll-on/roll-off auto transport for army vehicles. And replace our 4th destroyer with a new one. We could refit the CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent, and build the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker. And refit the CCGS Amundsen. And built the small icebreakers the Conservatives promised. All for the price of their current plan, or less.

[Jabberwalker]

Values my family taught to me when growing up: take care of what you have, or you don't deserve to get anything.

There you go, Gunnair. If you and your mates don't take better care of your toys, you are not WORTHY of receiving replacements!

IF you are good boys and girls and don't damage ANY MORE of your ships, expect to get replacements for the Halifax Class by mid century ... no earlier, mind, deeply held Methodism trumps things like severe obsolescence every time.

It's the principle of the thing. You must keep that old Studebaker going, just like old grand-dad did.

[Winnipegger]

Ever read the book "Starship Troopers"? Not the horrible movie, I mean the actual book. It was written by Robert A. Heinlein, a US Navy veteran. There was a scene where a new recruit in boot camp went to supply asking for a uniform that fits. The supply sergeant said he you already got what you were issued. The recruit complained that it doesn't fit. After some discussion, the recruit asked "What am I supposed to do?" The sergeant replied "You're asking for advice?" Then handed him a razor blade, needle and thread. Told him to do the work himself, make his uniform fit.

[Jabberwalker]

Please ... try to inform yourself a little better. Not every aspect of national policy comes down to simple bean counting. There really is more to this country.

[Winnipegger]

And how old are B-52 bombers?

[Jabberwalker]

Do you know those big, 24 pounder cannon at Fort Henry in Kingston that they still fire everyday?

They're a 180 years old! Good value! Not bad, eh?

[Gunnair]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Gunnair Gunnair:

60 years? Are you serious? Where on Earth did you get that number ?

From DND.

This means our destroyers too. They were commissioned in the 1970s. Their first refit was the early 1990s. Their second refit is scheduled now, or the early part of this decade. That means they are scheduled for retirement in early 2030s. Frigates are scheduled for their second refit then; retirement in early 2050s.

Values my family taught to me when growing up: take care of what you have, or you don't deserve to get anything. And don't throw it out because some salesman says so. Salesmen will always try to sell you something you don't need. They will try to convince you that which you have is bad, throw it away then pay him to re-purchase the exact same thing. A simple home example: don't buy milk past its expiry date. However, when in your fridge, don't throw it out as soon as the expiry date is reached. It's usually perfectly good for some time beyond that date. Smell it. You can smell when milk turns bad. As long as it doesn't smell bad, continue to use it. Of course, once it is past its printed expiry date, smell it every time before pouring into your coffee.

Yes, this does apply to navy ships. A steel hull is a steel hull is a steel hull. The design hasn't changed, there isn't a new bow design that makes previous ships obsolete. And weapons on our frigates and destroys have been updated so many times that there isn't anything newer. Refit: clean any rust. Replace any bolts or nuts that have rusted. Fresh coat of paint. Replace electronics because they get obsolete so damn fast: new radios, new radar, new sonar, new computers. Replace bed sheets and light bulbs. Give the engines a complete overhaul. All mechanical equipment gets a complete overhaul. And it's good until its next refit.

Here's a simple principle that Winnipeg has a problem with: don't re-purchase what we already have, instead add to it by purchasing something we don't already have. Winnipeg replaced our arena and stadium. When Glen Murray was a councillor, he campaigned to not replace our arena, but renovate the one we had. That would be half the price, better location, better parking, and as large as the arena in Toronto. The renovation plan included completely replacing the roof and stands. But no, some businessmen manipulated all 3 levels of government to give them money. The old arena was destroyed, the new one is even smaller than our old arena, it's downtown so all the problems with downtown parking and traffic, and we taxpayers had to shell out. Recently our stadium was replaced. The old stadium only need new bathrooms and concessions: $50,000 total. But some businessman con'ed the politicians to give him millions to build a new stadium way out at the southern edge of the city. For all that money we could have built an LRT. Winnipeg is the largest city in North America with no rapid transit at all. Oh, this year they built "bus rapid transit", which is just a bus with a dedicated road for part of its route. We could have had a real LRT! And another deal: one businessman bought a rail yard the CP wanted to sell. He offered to sell it to the city at cost. CP was pissed, they didn't want the city to get any of their land. But instead, he gave the land for free, ripped up and sold the rails. That land already had rails, with road crossings. It was perfect for our first LRT. Put all this together: we could have renovated our arena and stadium, leaving a much larger arena than we have now. And built a real LRT. And all this for less than all three levels of government paid.

So now the Conservatives want to scrap our frigates and destroyers, re-purchase the same thing. We had 4 destroys before Harper was elected, now we have 3. The current plan would leave us with 3 destroyers, and the same number of frigates. Instead we could refit them, and refit out two AOR ships. Then build a third AOR, but the third would built with a dual-acting hull so it's a heavy icebreaker and able to cross deep ocean. And a separate roll-on/roll-off auto transport for army vehicles. And replace our 4th destroy with a new one. We could refit the CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent, and build the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker. And refit the CCGS Amundsen. And built the small icebreakers the Conservatives promised. All for the price of their current plan, or less.

Links

[Gunnair]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

And how old are B-52 bombers?

How many flying hours compared to sailing hours

Apples and oranges

[Winnipegger]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Not every aspect of national policy comes down to simple bean counting.

Remember my ambition is to be finance minister. That means head bean counter. Unless you want to call the Auditor General "head bean counter". But still, bean counter.

A large part of military policy is bean counting. You only have so much money to work with. Managing anything, whether household or corporation or country, means maximum benefit from limited resources. If you can't understand that, then stay out of the way of those who can.

You guys have criticised Trudeau for scrapping the HMCS Bonaventure immediately after it was refit. Now you want to scrap our current frigates immediately after they are refit?

[Gunnair]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Not every aspect of national policy comes down to simple bean counting.

Remember my ambition is to be finance minister. That means head bean counter. Unless you want to call the Auditor General "head bean counter". But still, bean counter.

A large part of military policy is bean counting. You only have so much money to work with. Managing anything, whether household or corporation or country, means maximum benefit from limited resources. If you can't understand that, then stay out of the way of those who can.

You guys have criticised Trudeau for scrapping the HMCS Bonaventure immediately after it was refit. Now you want to scrap our current frigates immediately after they are refit?

Where the hell are you getting the info that the frigates are going to be scrapped so quickly? Not that stupid Facebook joke I hope.