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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:06 pm
 


The law requires the police to followup in cases where there is reasonable cause to believe an individual is an illegal immigrant. It also specifically states that race is not a reasonable cause. How is this some kind of "Nazi" legislation?

This law also takes steps to address employers. I would like to see harsher punishments in that area of the bill, but revoking their business licenses seems like a good start.

I highly recommend people take a look at the bill before pulling the race card insulting its supporters.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:56 pm
 


Bah, they already changed this law, from "lawful contact" to "stop, detain or arrest."


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:56 pm
 


andyt andyt:
And again - if either Repubs or Dems were serious about stopping illegal immigration, they would go after the people who employ them. This law is just grandstanding to a particular base, most of whom probably employ illegals themselves, either directly or indirectly.


I agree, the employers should be prosecuted and there's a Federal law that makes hiring someone whow does not qualify to work in the USA (this is ascertained on the I-9 form) is a crime. But it is a crime that the Federal government doesn't often enforce because the fucking Democrats don't want it enforced. See, what happens is these illegal aliens take root here and have kids and those kids vote Democrat in overwhelming numbers so the Democrats tacitly support illegal immigration because they're a bunch of vote-buying, treasonous whores.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:40 pm
 


The law cannot -- must not -- confer authority to demand identification of any American citizen unless that individual is reasonably suspected of having committed a crime. Furthermore, an American citizen would often be well within his or her right to refuse to provide identification, or answer any further questions, in which instance the police officer could not further detain the individual without probable cause (see: Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 [1968]). In some jurisdictions, however, the individual must state his or her name, but would not be required to furnish an identifying document if he or she wished to avoid further detention (see: Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 [2004]). In New York, an individual may elect not to identify himself, although a police officer may request that he or she do so. Colorado appears to require that an individual furnish such information where they possess it. Refusal to do so may constitute grounds for reasonable suspicion per Dempsey v. People, No. 04SC362 (2005).

What is the objective, reasonable standard by which a police officer will be able to assess that an individual is probably in the United States illegally (i.e., not an American citizen)? When he is standing by a fresh-cut hole in a border fence? When he is pulled over and found to be concealing human cargo? Certainly. But if he is simply unable to speak English? Certainly not. If he is found in the company of persons known to be in the United States illegally? Again, certainly not, for the identity of one individual does not suggest as to the identity (or guilt) of another.

According to the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Enforcement of the new law, where it may result in a request of an American citizen, by an officer of the law, for identifying documents, would constitute unreasonable search, because an individual expects privacy of their immediate person, and society finds that expectation reasonable (see: Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 [1967]). By this same logic, the passengers in a motor vehicle which has been stopped solely on grounds of a moving violation, and in which case there is no further crime committed, may not be subject to search (see: United States v. Di Re [1948] 332 US 581, 68 S Ct 222, 92 L Ed 210).

In short, the Arizona law will be practically unenforceable. Granted, that may not be the point. It is, at least in part, a mere statement -- a shot across the bow of the federal government.

The problem of how to address illegal immigrants from Central and South America is a thorny one. As others have observed, there is a willing market for that sort of immigrant labor in the United States, and an established culture in which they can make themselves more or less comfortable. Their remittances do a great deal to stabilize the often-foundering economies of our neighbors. While we are perhaps compelled to grant them social services in the interests of avoiding establishment of a permanent underclass or doing injustice to our own sense of morality and fair play, they do constitute a drain on the public coffers in those instances in which they do not pay tax; they are prone to abuses of all kinds, including criminal behavior; and they undercut competition for jobs that simple economics tell us would otherwise go to citizens. Certainly, stronger measures need to be taken to secure the border. I favor amnesty for those already here, although felony criminal behavior should result in deportation.

Let me also add that I can give no sympathy to the idea that it is reasonable for members of our society to put up with profiling, because they should have "nothing to hide." While I might feel that this is excellent advice for myself, I wouldn't presume to oblige others to live as I see fit. As a white male, selection for enhanced scrutiny at the airport is a novelty that is, at worst, a minor inconvenience, and at best, an opportunity to feel good by "doing my part" to comply with a peace officer or security professional. I don't pretend that it will always be the same for a person of color. To do so would be to ignore history entirely.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I agree, the employers should be prosecuted and there's a Federal law that makes hiring someone whow does not qualify to work in the USA (this is ascertained on the I-9 form) is a crime. But it is a crime that the Federal government doesn't often enforce because the fucking Democrats don't want it enforced. See, what happens is these illegal aliens take root here and have kids and those kids vote Democrat in overwhelming numbers so the Democrats tacitly support illegal immigration because they're a bunch of vote-buying, treasonous whores


It is hardly a conceit of the Democrats only. Republicans can only sometimes afford to be "tough" on illegal immigrants: the Big Business lobby that supplies much of the party's bankroll and a significant helping of its ideology is solidly in favor of employing immigrant labor, legal or otherwise.

I would also submit that the Democratic Party is likely to change considerably over the course of the next generation. Hispanic voters tend to be socially conservative on issues like gay marriage, which could force a change in party principle.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:29 pm
 


R=UP Wow! Trenacker, Great post. ^^^^


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:04 am
 


Sounds as if the USA should send all of our illegal aliens to Canada.
That might mean Ya'lll will have to take down all those signs in only two languages
and replace them with Spanish. Then you will have three languages on them.
In the USA all hospitals have signs in spanish stating that free services are there for the asking if you are Mexician and cannot pay.
If a citizen of the states you will be served at selectd hospitals. But, you will be billed.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:57 am
 


Arizona Law; Here in the US of A we have and hold onto dearly,
what are known as States rights.
That means that D.C. or protestors or even Canada may say or think what they will.
Each State reserves the right to act free of outside influence.

Don't know Canadian law? May be Ya'lll have let Ottawa take your provincial rights from you. Or never have had them.
And, that is your business.

A very large segment of US citizens feel that DC is not interested in our best interest. And, the Federal Gov-a-ment is to blamed big for its britches.
And, spends and gives away and/or spends our money without regard for the best interest of citizens who earned it.

Tuesday will say a volume about what Direction this nation is going to steer.

Tuesday the People get to speak.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:09 am
 


angler57 angler57:
In the USA all hospitals have signs in spanish stating that free services are there for the asking if you are Mexician and cannot pay.
If a citizen of the states you will be served at selectd hospitals. But, you will be billed.


If you are an American citizen that lacks the means to pay for medical care, the hospital will either administer emergency care, or alert you to the services of a free clinic that can provide non-emergency care. Virtually all hospitals retain a social worker on staff to coordinate your access to low-fee/no-fee medical care, if necessary.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:45 am
 


$1:
"Family Guy" creator says Arizona law like Nazi Germany

MacFarlane, whose irreverent animated TV comedies have themselves provoked controversy, said the Arizona law was more shocking than anything he had done on television.

"It's too much. It's kind of a slap in the face, it's not the way to handle it...Nobody but the Nazis ever asked anybody for their papers," MacFarlane told Reuters Television in an interview on Thursday.

"Walking down the street, a cop can come up to you and say 'May I see your papers?' -- I think they should be required to ask that question in German if the law sticks around," he added.



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/1004 ... mmigration


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:54 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
$1:
"Family Guy" creator says Arizona law like Nazi Germany

MacFarlane, whose irreverent animated TV comedies have themselves provoked controversy, said the Arizona law was more shocking than anything he had done on television.

"It's too much. It's kind of a slap in the face, it's not the way to handle it...Nobody but the Nazis ever asked anybody for their papers," MacFarlane told Reuters Television in an interview on Thursday.

"Walking down the street, a cop can come up to you and say 'May I see your papers?' -- I think they should be required to ask that question in German if the law sticks around," he added.



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/1004 ... mmigration


The issue of an identification card has always been frowned upon. However the drivers license is the unofficial identification card. Police have stopped me walking in the park and asked for some id. I believe the vagrancy law is based on not being able to produce an identification that you have an address.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:37 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
$1:
"Family Guy" creator says Arizona law like Nazi Germany

MacFarlane, whose irreverent animated TV comedies have themselves provoked controversy, said the Arizona law was more shocking than anything he had done on television.

"It's too much. It's kind of a slap in the face, it's not the way to handle it...Nobody but the Nazis ever asked anybody for their papers," MacFarlane told Reuters Television in an interview on Thursday.

"Walking down the street, a cop can come up to you and say 'May I see your papers?' -- I think they should be required to ask that question in German if the law sticks around," he added.



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/1004 ... mmigration



drama queen :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:40 am
 


angler57 angler57:
Sounds as if the USA should send all of our illegal aliens to Canada.
That might mean Ya'lll will have to take down all those signs in only two languages
and replace them with Spanish. Then you will have three languages on them.
In the USA all hospitals have signs in spanish stating that free services are there for the asking if you are Mexician and cannot pay.
If a citizen of the states you will be served at selectd hospitals. But, you will be billed.


Image


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:42 am
 


angler57 angler57:
Arizona Law; Here in the US of A we have and hold onto dearly,
what are known as States rights.
That means that D.C. or protestors or even Canada may say or think what they will.
Each State reserves the right to act free of outside influence
.


Thanks for the lesson. Shut up already on our gun laws then.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:39 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
"Family Guy" creator says Arizona law like Nazi Germany


Reminds me alot of South Africa during apartheid, the system of legal racial segregation enforced the police.

0:
Arizona_Apartheid.jpg
Arizona_Apartheid.jpg [ 56.32 KiB | Viewed 229 times ]


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:53 am
 


tritium tritium:
bootlegga bootlegga:
"Family Guy" creator says Arizona law like Nazi Germany


Reminds me alot of South Africa during apartheid, the system of legal racial segregation enforced the police.

0:
Arizona_Apartheid.jpg


I don't agree. This law isn't very effective, because there is no national citizenship card that Americans are required to carry, so Americans won't be able to provide the cop proof. The law might be applied in a ethnicity based manner, but inherently it's just telling the cops to do what they are already supposed to do.

I don't agree with this law because it's stupid, not because it's racist. People act as if illegal immigrants, the vast proportion of whom happen to be Hispanic, have some sort of right to be in the US, that it's racist of the US to want to deport illegal immigrants. That's just bullshit.

But again, if the US, or even this state, were serious about eliminating illegals in the country, they would put all their enforcement efforts (aside from border patrol) into catching and severely punishing the employers of the illegals. That would stop the problem yesterday.


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