[Tricks]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

My GF is a teacher here in the GTA, at her school, the teachers rotate lunch and break duty. While I remember volunteer parents from my day, I think that thing went the way of the Do-Do once other parents and school boards started to wondered whether they could really trust leaving their children in the unsupervised hands of "volunteers" given that these people don't go through any formal screening and are not under any kind of employment contract. Those types of jobs tend to attract the kiddie-diddlers and the otherwise unemployable.

I didn't imply that school holidays are spent with with children, but PD days (standing for Professional Development) are days when the teachers are in seminars and workshops learning how to take care of your kid better. So its not time with your kid, but its still work that benefits your kid.


Of 52 weeks out of the year, about 38 of those are during the school year (according to your account, but isnt march break only 1 week?), excluding stat holidays. In each those 38 weeks, there are 5 weekdays, meaning 190 days. There are a max of 5 stat holidays falling in the school year (depending on the province) and lets be generous and say there are 4 PD days in the year (I dont think there are that many). We're up to at least 181 days. By your own numbers, your kid is in school at least 6 hours a day, not including any extra-curricular activity they may be doing at school such as sports or music.

Meaning that for about half of the year, in order to match the 6 hours of time your kid has spent with your teacher, you must spend at least 6 hours with them after school. And if they're watching TV or doing homework by themselves or playing outside or whatever, that doesn't count. Now if you're like most parents, you don't get to leave work early and so dont see your kids until 5:30 or 6:00. So now were' approaching midnight and you're just catching up to the teacher, assuming you spend almost 100% of your free time with your kid and they have no other activity away from you.

So 181 * 6 = 1,086 hours a year the teacher spends with your kid. Lets assume realistically a working parent spends 2.5 hours with your kid after school on each of those days. That amounts to 452.50 hours. You can catch up ground on the remaining 633.5 hours over the 184 summer days, PD days and weekends if you spend at least 3.45 hours EVERY day with your kid on those days.

So in short, I figure if you spend 2.5 hours with your kid EVERY school day and 3.5 hours EVERY non-school-day, then you're spending just as much time with your kid as the teacher.

BUT

The teacher spends at least that 75% of that time with them teaching them things, shaping their ideas and minds for years to come. What do you spend that time doing?

That was the most preachy load of shit I've ever read. If you honestly believe that a teacher spends even remotely all 6 hours with each individual kid (newsflash that's impossible) this is a complete waste of everyone's time.

And according to Lemmy, you can't be objective because your GF is a teacher.

[BeaverFever]

Brenda Brenda:

We are talking BC here.

Of 52 weeks out of the year, about 38 of those are during the school year (according to your account, but isnt march break only 1 week?), Sure, if you call March 12 (Monday) till March 26 (also, Monday) 1 week.

I just looked it up...according to the BC Ministry of Eduction, March Break this year is the week of March 19-23; school is in session for 194 days, during which there is a required minimum of 187 "instructional" days and a maximum of 6 "non-instructional" days are allowed (the reamining extra day seems to be an "administrative day" for staff on the last day of school year - an extra work day after your kids are done for the year).

$1:

You have the audacity to claim that my kid gets 6 hours of unconditional attention from her teacher?

haha ok, I'll let you credit 1.5 hours of "supervising from a distance" to account for their breaks, but you have to be physically present in some fashion. But the rest of the time you have to be directing their activity in a structured setting

[Brenda]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Brenda Brenda:

We are talking BC here.

Of 52 weeks out of the year, about 38 of those are during the school year (according to your account, but isnt march break only 1 week?), Sure, if you call March 12 (Monday) till March 26 (also, Monday) 1 week.

I just looked it up...according to the BC Ministry of Eduction, March Break this year is the week of March 19-23; school is in session for 194 days, during which there is a required minimum of 187 "instructional" days and a maximum of 6 "non-instructional" days are allowed (the reamining extra day seems to be an "administrative day" for staff on the last day of school year - an extra work day after your kids are done for the year).

That's funny, because I have my kids home from the friday afternoon before March 12 till monday morning on the 26th. Guess your info is wrong. but hey, I guess you know better than I do when they are home

$1:

$1:

You have the audacity to claim that my kid gets 6 hours of unconditional attention from her teacher?

haha ok, I'll let you credit 1.5 hours of "supervising from a distance" to account for their breaks, but you have to be physically present in some fashion. But the rest of the time you have to be directing their activity in a structured setting

Huh? You let me "credit" 1.5 hours "supervising from a distance"? So the time I spend with them from 2:15 till they go to bed is worthless, except for 1.5 hours?
I direct their activity 18 hours per day! As does EVERY parent! Are you out of your mind??
I take it that I can just go out and about in the middle of the night? Not bothering about them waking up with tummy aches or nightmares?


"oh fuck, kid is puking, call the parents to take it home. And the janitor, because I ain't cleaning that up, that is NOT in my job description..."

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Yet teachers get to go home at 4pm. Firemen, police and EMS often work overnight and see little of their family for days at a time.

Exactly, which is why, as I said, such comparisons are inappropriate.

[BeaverFever]

Tricks Tricks:

That was the most preachy load of shit I've ever read. If you honestly believe that a teacher spends even remotely all 6 hours with each individual kid (newsflash that's impossible).

No, but for the 6 hours, even in a group setting, teachers are still

1) Physically present and serving as the adult authority and disciplinary figure (and therefore shaping the childs understanding of authority and discipline)

2)Overseeing the physical safety of the children and tending to their emotional needs when THEY see fit (shaping childs ability to trust)

3)Regulating their behaviour and social interactions with eachother, (again shaping their understanding of trust, fairness, cooperation, "proper behaviour", "playig nicely" etc).

3) Both deliberately and inadvertently impressing the kids with actual knowledge and ideas (including the teachers own personal opinions and prejudices) that shape the child's understanding of the world.

I would argue that parents underestimate the impact teachers have on raising a child, especially in a world where both parents work. Its just that the teacher changes every year so we assume their impact is limited.

My whole point is that children spend a major chunk of their waking hours in their developmental years under the tutelage and supervision of these other adults and some seem to think that these adults, the job they do, and the impact they have on society aren't very important. I think that's a grave mistake.

[Brenda]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Tricks Tricks:

That was the most preachy load of shit I've ever read. If you honestly believe that a teacher spends even remotely all 6 hours with each individual kid (newsflash that's impossible).

No, but for the 6 hours, even in a group setting, teachers are still

1) Physically present and serving as the adult authority and disciplinary figure (and therefore shaping the childs understanding of authority and discipline)

So are parents, especially when there are siblings around.

$1:

2)Overseeing the physical safety of the children and tending to their emotional needs when THEY see fit (shaping childs ability to trust)

So do parents the other 18 hours of the day

$1:

3)Regulating their behaviour and social interactions with eachother, (again shaping their understanding of trust, fairness, cooperation, "proper behaviour", "playig nicely" etc).

So do parents, all waking hours, except for 6 on weekdays.

$1:

3) Both deliberately and inadvertently impressing the kids with actual knowledge and ideas (including the teachers own personal opinions and prejudices) that shape the child's understanding of the world.

So do parents.

$1:

I would argue that parents underestimate the impact teachers have on raising a child, especially in a world where both parents work. Its just that the teacher changes every year so we assume their impact is limited.

I would argue that the individual time a teacher spends with an individual child is highly exaggerated.

$1:

My whole point is that children spend a major chunk of their waking hours in their developmental years under the tutelage and supervision of these other adults and some seem to think that these adults, the job they do, and the impact they have on society aren't very important. I think that's a grave mistake.

Sure. But not more than parents. When someone claims the teacher is more important and spends more time with children than their parents (of course I am talking about responsible parents, which is, imo, still the majority), I get pissed off, because that is a total underestimation of parenting.

[2Cdo]

Just to help out if we assume a class size of 20 that said teacher has for 6 hours a day, they would spend an average 18 minutes per child!

[Tricks]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

1) Physically present and serving as the adult authority and disciplinary figure (and therefore shaping the childs understanding of authority and discipline)

Implying Parents don't do that.

$1:

2)Overseeing the physical safety of the children and tending to their emotional needs when THEY see fit (shaping childs ability to trust)

So... never?

$1:

3)Regulating their behaviour and social interactions with eachother, (again shaping their understanding of trust, fairness, cooperation, "proper behaviour", "playig nicely" etc).

Bahaha quite the stretch there too. They're more likely to just let it happen.

$1:

3) Both deliberately and inadvertently impressing the kids with actual knowledge and ideas (including the teachers own personal opinions and prejudices) that shape the child's understanding of the world.

Glad you included personal opinions and prejudices, cause that's not a good thing, especially when that same teacher squashes dissent from their opinion. Good teaching right there.

$1:

I would argue that parents underestimate the impact teachers have on raising a child, especially in a world where both parents work. Its just that the teacher changes every year so we assume their impact is limited.

I think you over estimate how much teachers actually do. These days parents are having to teach their kids more cause teachers aren't up to snuff.

$1:

My whole point is that children spend a major chunk of their waking hours in their developmental years under the tutelage and supervision of these other adults and some seem to think that these adults, the job they do, and the impact they have on society aren't very important. I think that's a grave mistake.

They also spend a major chunk of their waking hours watching TV or playing video games.

At the lower grades, I don't think it's that important. Most parents are capable of teaching that level of education because it's basic and simple. And since it's one on one it's far more effective. Even into high school, I finished several courses that took a normal public school student 5-6 months to learn in less than half that. One of which I essentially taught myself. Sure my experience may be unique, but don't preach to me that this profession keeps the world from falling into chaos.

[bootlegga]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

bootlegga bootlegga:

You can't compare two vastly different careers like that - it's apples and oranges.

But think about how important mechanics are in society. Without them, fewer people would be able to get to work reliably and on-time. Core areas of cities would be even more crowded since almost everyone would want to live close to work so they can get to work.
Cities that are already having trouble funding mass transit would find themselves with the monumental task of coming up with more money for mass transit.
My God man, western society would be paralyzed without these paragons of automotive repair. Especially as auto makers continue to make cars less and less accessible to fix and service for the average person and backyard mechanics.


/smart-ass mode off

If that's the case, we should make sure the sewer engineers get the best salaries out of everyone - can't have shit backing up on us now!

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Yet teachers get to go home at 4pm. Firemen, police and EMS often work overnight and see little of their family for days at a time.

Again, you can't really compare teachers and emergency workers anymore than you can compare them to mechanics. How each career works is totally different.

Teachers generally teach four-six hours per day, then spend the rest of their time at work doing lesson plans, marking assignments/tests, ordering supplies, coaching/supervising school teams, etc. So they work 40-50 hours per week and work during evey hour.

Conversely, firemen, cops and EMS work shift work and sometimes sit around for much of their shift without a call (firemen especially). And, here in Edmonton at least, those stretches of say four days on shift is followed by four (or more) days off, giving them time to de-stress and see their family - teachers don't get that perk. This comes from tales related to me by friends/friend's parents who work those jobs. However, when they do have to work though, it's almost always an incredibly high stress situation (like a domestic dispute or dealing with a traffic accident). This means some emergency responders may 'work' only 20 out of their 40-50 hours per week.

Despite this, there is no real way to measure who 'works more'. All four professions have pretty tough jobs and deserve to be paid for their hard work.

[Lemmy]

Tricks Tricks:

I think you over estimate how much teachers actually do. These days parents are having to teach their kids more cause teachers aren't up to snuff

You're a young guy and I suspect your opinion on that will change some when you grow up. I don't think, I KNOW that you vastly underestimate how much teachers actually do. And if anything, teachers these says are having to do MORE because parents aren't up to snuff, not the other way around.

[fifeboy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Tricks Tricks:

However, teachers receive 2 months vacation in the summer. That's almost 17% less work. Suddenly the numbers make a bit more sense, with the exception of firefighters. I'm shocked they don't make more.

If we're going to play the numbers game, how many minutes in a 10 hour shift are a police officer or fireman actually working as opposed to sitting around waiting for something to (maybe) happen? I'd argue a teacher does a lot more 'working' in a 70 minute lesson than a fireman does all week. You can't compare different professions in the manner you're attempting.

Yet teachers get to go home at 4pm. Firemen, police and EMS often work overnight and see little of their family for days at a time.

Wow! Your ignorance of what teachers do is astounding. If I could have been paid for overtime after 4 I could have retired after 15 years. Or don't police and firefighters get paid overtime?

[peck420]

What's with the, "this profession is more valuable...no that profession is more valuable" BS that pops up every time this sort of topic comes up?

If any of the professions weren't valued, they probably wouldn't exist as professions.

Is it that hard to say that all professions are valuable to society? As to which profession is more valuable? Put them in the ring, charge pay-per-view and give everybody a raise with the proceeds.

[Brenda]

ALL professions are valuable to society.
(nope, was not hard to say )

[Lemmy]

Tricks Tricks:

And according to Lemmy, you can't be objective because your GF is a teacher.

Huh? When did I say that? If anything, people who have relationships with teachers are likely to have a more realistic understanding about the realities and challenges of the job. On the other hand, people who's sole understanding of the profession comes from faded (and jaded) teenaged memories tend to be those quickest to bash teachers. Teenagers are selfish, rebellious, know-it-all, immature assholes. ALL of us were, to varying degrees. Those are the defining characteristics of teenagers. How do you know when a teenager's lying? His/her lips are moving.

As adults, we need to recognize that the world wasn't very much like we perceived it to be when we were 17. That's especially true of the way we perceived authority figures. "They weren't cool. They weren't fun. They didn't help us. They didn't know anything. They were lazy. They couldn't teach me, I learned it all myself. They played favourites. They didn't understand me. They were incompetent." I'd like to think that most of us, when we get to be adults, realize how wrong we were. Some never do.