[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Atlanta officer fired, police chief resigns after fatal shooting of Black man

Honestly this one doesn’t sound so unjustified given the current reality our society sends armed police to respond to people sleeping in cars blocking traffic. The suspect grabbed the officer’s taser and pointed it at him after 40 minutes of calm interaction. This isn’t one of those cases where the cops show up and kill an unarmed person minutes later.

Perhaps if there were unarmed community safety officers to deal with these kind of nuisances instead of armed cops things wouldn’t escalate to deadly encounters

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but a taser is not a lethal weapon, according to court testimony of police officers. So there is no reason to respond with deadly force.

They know who the guy is. Let him go, arrest him later with more officers.

[DrCaleb]

But, as I just posted, I totally agree that DUIs should not be a reason for the cops to respond.

[Thanos]

This is where the concept of scaling back police duties is going overboard. DUI is a dangerous crime that kills people. It's not like taking the cops off of jaywalking busts.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

This is where the concept of scaling back police duties is going overboard. DUI is a dangerous crime that kills people. It's not like taking the cops off of jaywalking busts.

Pulling the DUI over, yes it's dangerous and should be done by a cop.

But a guy parked in a lot who looks drunk? No. You could just have a bylaw guy and a tow truck. Administer the breath test, and call a cop to arrest him if it's warranted. But two cars, with guns and tasers? Overreaction.

Read the essay Boots posted. That ex-bastard makes it pretty clear that what he did day to day did not require an armed officer to respond.

[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Atlanta officer fired, police chief resigns after fatal shooting of Black man

Honestly this one doesn’t sound so unjustified given the current reality our society sends armed police to respond to people sleeping in cars blocking traffic. The suspect grabbed the officer’s taser and pointed it at him after 40 minutes of calm interaction. This isn’t one of those cases where the cops show up and kill an unarmed person minutes later.

Perhaps if there were unarmed community safety officers to deal with these kind of nuisances instead of armed cops things wouldn’t escalate to deadly encounters

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but a taser is not a lethal weapon, according to court testimony of police officers. So there is no reason to respond with deadly force.

They know who the guy is. Let him go, arrest him later with more officers.

In the world we live in now, the one that these officers live in, DUI means you have to attempt an arrest. From what I understand things went smoothly for over 40 minutes then went downhill fast when the attempt was made. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for an officer to use his sidearm when someone is pointing his own taser at him. There’s a reason they’re called “less lethal weapons” and not ”non-lethal” weapons. Furthermore, because officers are armed in the first place I think it’s reasonable for them to assume their life is in danger if they’re rendered unconscious because then their sidearm can be used against them.

Based on the facts I’ve read this man unlike others was the victim if a bad system not bad cops.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Thanos Thanos:

This is where the concept of scaling back police duties is going overboard. DUI is a dangerous crime that kills people. It's not like taking the cops off of jaywalking busts.

Pulling the DUI over, yes it's dangerous and should be done by a cop.

But a guy parked in a lot who looks drunk? No. You could just have a bylaw guy and a tow truck. Administer the breath test, and call a cop to arrest him if it's warranted. But two cars, with guns and tasers? Overreaction.

Read the essay Boots posted. That ex-bastard makes it pretty clear that what he did day to day did not require an armed officer to respond.

Okay, two things:

1. I 100% agree with you that if tasers are not lethal then the police have no justification to use lethal force against someone who has a taser. But if they wish to argue that they have a right to use lethal force against anyone armed with a taser than so do I and so does everyone else.

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

In the world we live in now, the one that these officers live in, DUI means you have to attempt an arrest.

From what I understand things went smoothly for over 40 minutes then went downhill fast when the attempt was made.

In many places, it is not required to be arrested if you are found to be driving while impaired.

https://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/dia ... d-driving/

That said, the suspect should not have resisted arrest. But if "Cops" taught me anything, it's that black men will suddenly have to be somewhere else real soon, if they are arrested. I don't understand it, but that is what tends to happen. They can be all nice and respectful, but then the cuffs come out and it's Usain Bolt time.

But, they knew who he was. Is there any benefit to fighting him on it?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for an officer to use his sidearm when someone is pointing his own taser at him. There’s a reason they’re called “less lethal weapons” and not ”non-lethal” weapons.

So, you are fine with a cop pulling out his gun and killing someone just because he feels threatened? Did you read any of this thread, at all?

You seem to be the only one who thinks this murder was justified.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Furthermore, because officers are armed in the first place I think it’s reasonable for them to assume their life is in danger if they’re rendered unconscious because then their sidearm can be used against them.

Based on the facts I’ve read this man unlike others was the victim if a bad system not bad cops.

Do you see the circular logic there? They are armed, so they are justified in killing people, because they are armed?

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Okay, two things:

1. I 100% agree with you that if tasers are not lethal then the police have no justification to use lethal force against someone who has a taser. But if they wish to argue that they have a right to use lethal force against anyone armed with a taser than so do I and so does everyone else.

I quite agree. It can't be both ways.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

Body cam footage I have seen (above video) does not show this. It shows him in a parked location. I don't know if there is other video showing him passed out in the drive-thru, but the above video doesn't show him pass-out drunk.

[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

In the world we live in now, the one that these officers live in, DUI means you have to attempt an arrest.

From what I understand things went smoothly for over 40 minutes then went downhill fast when the attempt was made.

In many places, it is not required to be arrested if you are found to be driving while impaired.

https://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/dia ... d-driving/

That said, the suspect should not have resisted arrest. But if "Cops" taught me anything, it's that black men will suddenly have to be somewhere else real soon, if they are arrested. I don't understand it, but that is what tends to happen. They can be all nice and respectful, but then the cuffs come out and it's Usain Bolt time.

But, they knew who he was. Is there any benefit to fighting him on it?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for an officer to use his sidearm when someone is pointing his own taser at him. There’s a reason they’re called “less lethal weapons” and not ”non-lethal” weapons.

So, you are fine with a cop pulling out his gun and killing someone just because he feels threatened? Did you read any of this thread, at all?

You seem to be the only one who thinks this murder was justified.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Furthermore, because officers are armed in the first place I think it’s reasonable for them to assume their life is in danger if they’re rendered unconscious because then their sidearm can be used against them.

Based on the facts I’ve read this man unlike others was the victim if a bad system not bad cops.

Do you see the circular logic there? They are armed, so they are justified in killing people, because they are armed?

You’re not understanding my point.

Im not defending the current system I’m saying the officers behaved appropriately given their system.

Those officers were required to attempt an arrest for DUI. Maybe that law should change maybe not. There are pros and cons to that. But nonetheless that’s the law now. Therefore it’s not unreasonable that they attempted to make an arrest.

On the second point again I’m not saying armed officers are the ones who should be responding to these calls but in Canada and the US the fact is that’s who does currently respond.

I don’t think it takes any twists of logic to understand that a police officer should legitimately fear for their life or safety if someone is trying to render them unconscious or taser them. Doubly so if they have a gun that can be used against them. So yeah having a gun makes a person more at risk of having said gun used against them, whether you’re a op or a private citizen. Welcome to gun control 101

Again I’ll reiterate that I’m not saying the people who respond to these calls SHOULD be armed officers Im just saying that’s how it is currently. If you Caleb were a police officer today you would be carrying a sidearm. Don’t tell me that if a suspect was about to taser you with your own taser that he just took from you, you would just let him do it and hope for the best rather than fire your weapon. That’s not believable

So doe the fourth or fifth time I’ll say that I’m not saying policing doesn't need massive radical reform Im saying these officers seem to have behaved reasonably given the CURRENT situation and what’s CURRENTLY required of them.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You’re not understanding my point.

Im not defending the current system I’m saying the officers behaved appropriately given their system.

Maybe I would understand you better if you didn't make a point at the beginning of a sentence then contradict it at the end of the sentence, like you just did.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Those officers were required to attempt an arrest for DUI. Maybe that law should change maybe not. There are pros and cons to that. But nonetheless that’s the law now. Therefore it’s not unreasonable that they attempted to make an arrest.

I made no comment on the arrest, only that not everywhere requires an arrest. They don't require arrest because impaired driving is not a violent offense. I actually wrote earlier that the guy should not have resisted arrest, and it seemed strange given he appeared co-operative up till that point.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

On the second point again I’m not saying armed officers are the ones who should be responding to these calls but in Canada and the US the fact is that’s who does currently respond.

I agree. And in Britain, most don't carry guns. And they don't seem to have a great deal of problems unless there is a right wing protest.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don’t think it takes any twists of logic to understand that a police officer should legitimately fear for their life or safety if someone is trying to render them unconscious or taser them. Doubly so if they have a gun that can be used against them. So yeah having a gun makes a person more at risk of having said gun used against them, whether you’re a op or a private citizen. Welcome to gun control 101

I also don't think it's unreasonable that if Police testify in court that a Taser is not lethal, and they are prevented from using lethal force in non-lethal situations, then shooting a guy in the back for a non-lethal act is murder. It's no the first time cops have been filmed shooting a person in the back unjustifiably.

The guy was perfectly polite and co-operative until the cuffs came out. I see no reason that if he wants to resist, you back off. He will be arrested, and there will be more cops involved and the will be much more serious charges than DUI.

But no one will get hurt. And this is a policy that requires no legislation.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Again I’ll reiterate that I’m not saying the people who respond to these calls SHOULD be armed officers Im just saying that’s how it is currently. If you Caleb were a police officer today you would be carrying a sidearm. Don’t tell me that if a suspect was about to taser you with your own taser that he just took from you, you would just let him do it and hope for the best rather than fire your weapon. That’s not believable

My experience as a serving police officer is limited, so I will not speculate. But what I do know about police training is that they believe they are in danger, and will react like that.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

So doe the fourth or fifth time I’ll say that I’m not saying policing doesn't need massive radical reform Im saying these officers seem to have behaved reasonably given the CURRENT situation and what’s CURRENTLY required of them.

Which is why they were instantly fired and the chief quit too?

[Martin15]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

Body cam footage I have seen (above video) does not show this. It shows him in a parked location. I don't know if there is other video showing him passed out in the drive-thru, but the above video doesn't show him pass-out drunk.

Sounds like you need to do more homework.

[DrCaleb]

Martin15 Martin15:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

Body cam footage I have seen (above video) does not show this. It shows him in a parked location. I don't know if there is other video showing him passed out in the drive-thru, but the above video doesn't show him pass-out drunk.

Sounds like you need to do more homework.

Thanks for that helpful and informative link!

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Okay, two things:

1. I 100% agree with you that if tasers are not lethal then the police have no justification to use lethal force against someone who has a taser. But if they wish to argue that they have a right to use lethal force against anyone armed with a taser than so do I and so does everyone else.

I quite agree. It can't be both ways.

Agreed.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

Body cam footage I have seen (above video) does not show this. It shows him in a parked location. I don't know if there is other video showing him passed out in the drive-thru, but the above video doesn't show him pass-out drunk.

The extended body cam footage shows he was sleeping while in the drive-thru line-up (time stamp 52 seconds in the video halfway down the page):

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/raysh ... index.html

[DrCaleb]

Oh! Look!

Atlanta police shooting: Rayshard Brooks death declared homicide

Apparently shooting people while running away is not self defence.

Who knew?

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. The man passed out in a drive-thru line while in the act of driving. The car was not parked in a parking space.

Body cam footage I have seen (above video) does not show this. It shows him in a parked location. I don't know if there is other video showing him passed out in the drive-thru, but the above video doesn't show him pass-out drunk.

The extended body cam footage shows he was sleeping while in the drive-thru line-up (time stamp 52 seconds in the video halfway down the page):

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/raysh ... index.html

Thanks!