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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:01 am
 


Debunking the "Clean Energy Jobs Vs. Oil Sands Jobs" Controversy

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/merran-smi ... 96740.html


$1:
We cast around on jobs numbers and soon found an apples-to-apples direct employment number: According to a 2013 Petroleum Human Resources Council report, 22,340 people work directly for oil-sands producers. So with respect to direct employment, in 2012, more people worked in these clean energy sectors than worked in the oil sands.

Neither number includes construction jobs, and neither includes the indirect or induced jobs associated with producing inputs that either the clean energy sector or the oil sands sector use in their operations.

No one is suggesting that this comparison represents the sum total of either sector's economic contribution. But we wanted to illustrate the scale of the incredible growth we've seen in clean energy -- and we think our comparison to oil sands jobs, which attracted national attention, did exactly that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:06 am
 


peck420 peck420:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
It's like celebrating how Beijing Automobile Works produces fewer vehicles than Toyota but with far more labor effort. It's asinine.

I'm starting to question which method is more efficient in the scope of an entire society?

Yes, Toyota is a world leader in manufacturing efficiency, but something does need to be said for the societal efficiency of having all that extra labour employed and working via BAW.


Also, there are costs associated with oil sands that are not accounted for. For example, the oilsands activity conumes huge amounts of other natural resources: water, natural gas, and electiricity specifically. Producing 1 barrel of oilsands oil takes 2.5 barrels of fresh water for example. And oilsands EROI (which is untis of energy produced per units of energy consumed in produciton) is 5:1 and has gone lower than 3:1. Meanwhile, conventional oil is typically 25:1. And none of this is including the energy used for ancilliary activities such as transporting workers and equipment into these relatively remote areas.

Over and above this, there is still more hidden oilsands cost (realized and unrealized) in terms of environmental damage and remediation, pollution-realted illnesses, etc. that is not taken into account but is a real cost to current and future generations of consumers and taxpayers.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:10 am
 


I wonder....if the conversavites were to make a new Start Trek movie, would the Enterprise would have to be powerd by twin V-8 engines, since they seem to always declare alternative and renewable energy sources to be forever a "failed science"?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:48 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I wonder....if the conversavites were to make a new Start Trek movie, would the Enterprise would have to be powerd by twin V-8 engines, since they seem to always declare alternative and renewable energy sources to be forever a "failed science"?

To be fair, if you had the space to build those twin v-8's big enough to power a starship, it would be more energy efficient than the antimatter powered one based on today's antimatter production efficiency.

You think making a barrel of oil from oil sands is inefficient....antimatter brings that to a whole other level.

Currently it takes approx 1 billion times the amount of energy contained in antimatter to produce it.

Now we have solar...which would require massive sails to power a very small craft...if we assume the sails are 100% efficient.

Obviously, wind and hydro are not really applicable for space craft.

Aside form all of this, at this scale I'm sure a nuclear reactor of some sort would probably end up as the most efficient power source.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:00 am
 


andyt andyt:

Neither number includes construction jobs, and neither includes the indirect or induced jobs associated with producing inputs that either the clean energy sector or the oil sands sector use in their operations.



Of course not, because as soon as you do, the lie becomes completely unsustainable.

Indirect job numbers are just as important:
No oil, no jobs.


I see BF is whining about V8s again, tomato crop not good this year ? :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:01 pm
 


The issue here is comparing peanuts to spaceships. Direct employment is one thing, real global employment is another thing entirely. There is absolutely no comparison between jobs that exist because of green energy and jobs that exist because of oil.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:11 pm
 


andyt andyt:
It makes more sense to be efficient and use robots, but the wealth generated by those robots needs to be distributed to the population and not just the owners of the robots.


That's the silliest thing I think you've ever written.

"It makes more sense to be efficient and use power tools, but the wealth generated by those power tools needs to be distributed to the population and not just the owners of the power tools."


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:35 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
The issue here is comparing peanuts to spaceships. Direct employment is one thing, real global employment is another thing entirely. There is absolutely no comparison between jobs that exist because of green energy and jobs that exist because of oil.


Yes, also green energy jobs are notorious for being temporary.

Also subsidies are not necessarily a renewable resource. Ontario windfarms might be lucrative for some temp workers one year, but as the populace balks at what they're paying, those subsidies supporting them might not be available the next.

And another thing that isn't mentioned enough is rare earth metals. You can't have even a subsidy driven green energy industry without rare earth metals and China decides who gets those and when.

And even if we fall in line and accept our scoop of daily drivel from the think tank of the Watermelon men all it means is a pixie dust driven industry had a year good enough to compare a national industry to a provincial one.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:42 pm
 


andyt andyt:
It makes more sense to be efficient and use robots, but the wealth generated by those robots needs to be distributed to the population and not just the owners of the robots.


What in F**K is wrong with you???? You hate productive people even when they don't have any employees!!!

You can't see the benefit of a fully automated line of production? I do, it means whatever product is being produced will be more affordable for people like yourself who hold no hope of ever escaping the bottom rungs of the labor and income pool.

But you'd render the whole investment moot by requiring an investor to share all of their profits with losers who didn't risk one. damn. thing. to make the venture happen.

You are a leech. A parasite. You NEVER evidence even a scintilla of initiative or responsibility for your own station in life. You think the answer to all of your problems lies in someone else's wallet and you're so damned lazy you want someone else to steal it for you!

That's it. I have no hope for you. None at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:02 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
The issue here is comparing peanuts to spaceships. Direct employment is one thing, real global employment is another thing entirely. There is absolutely no comparison between jobs that exist because of green energy and jobs that exist because of oil.


ONE MORE TIME:

The topic is Canada's OILSANDS. Not the broader conventional oil sector and not global oil sector either. Oilsands and "Oil" are not synomynous.

The point is that there are as many people in the Green Energy secotr as there are in the Alberta oilsands.

REPEAT: Alberta Oilsands. Not conventional oil and gas.


On Subsidies: Oilsands receive all kinds federal and provincial subsidies, special tax write-offs, deducitons etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:02 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
ROTFL
$1:
That means the 23,700 people who work in green energy organizations outnumber the 22,340 whose work relates to the oil sands, the report says.


I'll call bullshit right there.

Someone ( most likely a greenie, they have no problem lying through their teeth ),
is really trying to pull a fast one.


It might be more relevant if they'd said that the 23,700 people who work in green energy organizations outnumber the 121,500 people directly employed in the petroleum industry in Alberta alone.

$1:
Oil sands creates opportunity;
one in 16 jobs in Alberta is directly related to energy.
About 121,500 Albertans are directly employed in Alberta's mining and oil and gas extraction sectors.
For every direct job (1) generated in the Alberta oil sands, 1 additional job is generated by indirect association and 1.5 jobs by induced association, in Canada. Source: Canadian Economic Impacts of New and Existing Oil Sands Development in Alberta (2014-2038) PDF icon - CERI (Nov. 2014)
Oil sands related total Canadian employment (direct, indirect and induced), as a result of construction of new projects and the operation of new and existing projects, is expected to continue growing from the current level (2014) of 514,000 jobs to a peak of 802,000 jobs in 2028. (Ibid., 4)
Oil sands related direct employment in Alberta is expected to continue growing from the current level (2014) of 146,000 jobs to a peak of 256,000 jobs in 2024.


http://www.energy.alberta.ca/OilSands/791.asp

So until the price per barrel drops to the magic number where it is no longer viable to extract, somewhere around $42.00 per barrel IIRC, of the green energy sector suddenly becomes viable and booms, the oil industry in Alberta alone will continue to dominate that sector for employment opportunities across Canada despite the spinning of statistics by the Green energy advocates.





PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:10 pm
 


So comparing every "green" energy job in the country to the single oilsands project in Alberta is supposed to proof what? That the left wing is clueless.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/cody-batte ... 29982.html

One fact jumped right off the page as I looked over this week's coverage of job numbers from Tides affiliate Clean Energy Canada.

It wasn't the fact the report claimed to have generated more jobs than all the jobs in the oilsands put together. Such a ludicrous claim came as no great surprise. Clean Energy Canada cherry-picks data like the slick, US-backed pros that they are. I expected as much.

No, what really surprised me was the effortless way Clean Energy spokesperson Merran Smith has managed her transition from anti-oilsands ForestEthics ideologue to the appearance of a constructive energy analyst in such short order.

I remember Ms. Smith - former Sierra Club of BC and ForestEthics staffer - through her organizations' eyebrow-raising participation (both ForestEthics and Tides) in a pitch for several million dollars from US foundations in New York.

Back in 2007, a number of environmental activist groups banded together in order to shut down the oilsands through a number of agreed means - all of them explained on a PowerPoint presentation delivered in a Manhattan office to a number of US donors.

According to the leaked PowerPoint, they were going to stop/limit pipelines and refinery expansions, force the issues regarding "tar sands" water, toxics and land reforms, significantly reduce future demand for "tar sands" oil, leverage the "tar sands" debate for "policy victories" in the US and Canada and generate unity around the fuels endgame and sell it to decision-makers.

In other words, the plan was to stop the Canadian project through cutting off transportation, drive up costs, spread horror stories about the product and its impacts and sell it all to the public through a very pricey activist campaign financed by US donors.

Ms. Smith's role hasn't changed much since then. Her Clean Energy Canada position, presumably underwritten in part by those same US donors, still places her effectively on the payroll of Tides Canada, a key funder of the anti-oilsands campaign referenced in that same PowerPoint presentation.

Only now she's being careful not to fall into the old anti-oilsands model, given that model hasn't been working very well lately. Instead, she's the face of feel-good green report about how the clean energy sector provides more jobs than does oil and gas.

"There were 23,700 people directly employed by the clean energy industry in 2013, compared to 22,340 jobs in the oilsands," the report is said to have found.


She ignores the fact oilsands companies are some of the largest alternative energy producers in the country. Pipeline operator Enbridge, for example, has a renewable energy portfolio that produces over 1,800 MW of energy - enough electricity to supply almost 600,000 homes.

Even worse, Tides has cherry picked its economic data. The report includes a wide range of "related" jobs as "renewable energy jobs," including manufacturing. But in the case of its oil and gas analysis, Tides only counts "direct" oilsands jobs, purposely excluding manufacturing and other services in its oilsands operations numbers.

I think you know where I'm going with this. The report has little value, as might be expected from a dedicated anti-oilsands campaigner who cut her oil-and-gas teeth pitching for US dollars from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.

By any fair analysis it is false that more Canadians are employed in green energy-related jobs than oilsands-related jobs. And it's part of Smith's divisive campaign to injure the oilsands in the view of the public.

Need further proof? If Smith were correct (and she's not) that clean energy job numbers have now surpassed oilsands job numbers, then would she continue advocating for government to subsidize further green jobs in Canada? No. Taken at face value, her report seems to suggest clean energy no longer needs the huge subsidies it's been getting through feed-in tariffs and the like.


But in terms of job numbers, her findings are in stark contrast to the highly respected Canadian Energy Research Institute (CERI) that recently found the following: total investment in new Alberta oilsands projects, plus sustaining capital in existing projects, will exceed $514 billion in the 2014-38 period.

CERI also found that revenue from all existing and new projects will exceed $2.5 trillion, and workers will benefit, it said, as total direct, indirect and induced jobs in the oilsands grow from 514,000 in 2014 to a peak of 802,000 jobs in 2028. In Alberta, that number will grow from 146,000 jobs now to a peak of 256,000 jobs in 2024.

As to the federal government, they can count on $574 billion in oilsands-related taxes in the next 25 years.

As to the CO2 component of that kind of growth in the oilsands, International Energy Agency Chief Economist Fatih Birol recently forecast that over the next 25 years oilsands production in Canada will increase by 3 million barrels per day, "but the emissions of this additional production is equal to only 23 hours of emissions in China - not even one day."

I've said it before: Compared to China whose GHG emissions amount to more than a quarter of all global GHG emissions, or the US where that country is responsible for more than 17 percent of the global figure, or even Europe's 12 percent figure, Canada's contribution is tiny.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:23 pm
 


8O

Holy shit! Did I just see that?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:05 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
REPEAT: Alberta Oilsands.




awww, good for you, splitting hairs and nitpicking yourself into your normal loss.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:07 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
8O

Holy shit! Did I just see that?



Yup, BF just got BTFO by none other than JJ.

Next week, live comcast of hell freezing over. :lol:


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