[StuntmanMike]

$1:

Ridenrain:You might want to reconsider that comment reguarding Vancouver. The riding of Ujjal Dosanjh is being re-counted because there's only 33 votes difference. Sukh Dhaliwal also didn't win with any solid autority either. Both of these guys had a hard time winning back their ridings. The only Lib that held on with authority was Hedy Fry who has been there since BC entered confederation and is unlikely to run again.

It's pretty clear that the Libs are losing BC to the NDP and the CPC.

I didn't say the Libs owned Vancouver, I said the CPC hasn't been able to break through there.

In Metro Vancouver, depending on how you determine the boundaries, there are about 11 seats. The Conservatives took none of them. They do however, own a few seats in the outlying areas of Delta, White Rock, Langley, etc. That is the equivilant of the 905 in Ontario, where they also have strength. But the fact remains, the Conservatives are still shut out of urban, inner city Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

You're talking about something like 45+ seats out of 308, so that's not an insignificant number.

[saturn_656]

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

But the fact remains, the Conservatives are still shut out of urban, inner city Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

Interestingly, those are also the only areas where the Liberals have significant support besides Newfoundland.

Without them (Toronto especially), the Liberal Party would have been toast.

[hwacker]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

But the fact remains, the Conservatives are still shut out of urban, inner city Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

Interestingly, those are also the only areas where the Liberals have significant support besides Newfoundland.

Without them (Toronto especially), the Liberal Party would have been toast.

The liberals are toast, the people that vote for them in those areas are the ones for the most part that allowed them to come into Canada.

Toronto is 50% immigrants

The country is waking up to the ploys of the liberals. They are not the party of Canada anymore.

[westmanguy]

If I can weigh in...

To address Justin Trudeau. I have little respect for his father and do not think he was a 'great' Canadian, for a variety of reasons (mainly being a Western Canadian, and him polarizing the West through a variety of measures including the N.E.P.). But I do agree with Derby, Jusin is his own man.

Justin could have been appointed to a safe riding, but he decided to do things the fair way, and run in a Liberal nomination race in Papineau and take on the Bloc incumbent there. But I do believe, and it can't be denied, his name helped him with his win and success in politics so far.

I think he is too young to lead the Liberals, but I think he has the right idea about how to get the Liberal Party on track:

Justin Trudeau Justin Trudeau:

"A lot of people are jumping on the idea that we need to change leadership and that will suddenly fix everything. There are a lot of things broken in the Liberal party.

There is a lot of rebuilding to do on party unity, on learning how to fundraise properly (and) reaching out to the grassroots and rebuilding an organization."

I do fear the Trudeau name, because, I do think Justin has that spark of his father of this grandiose vision, and I don't want to live through any major social overhaul of society, I want incremental change (which Harper offers).

But Justin has the right idea, and this is where I think Liberals are deluded:

Dion isn't the problem with your party. He is being used as a scapegoat by many Liberals. Getting a new leader will not solve your problems.

The Liberal party's woes run much much deeper than that. I wish, derby, you could recongize some of this. Because it's arrogant Liberals (to which there are an abundance) who think it's just Dion's fault and the Liberal band is still strong who have it wrong.

1. You are only strong in three areas of the country. Montreal, Toronto, and Atlantic Canada (to which the Conservatives are making inroads in Toronto, and besides Newfoundland are gaining in New Brunswick, broke into PEI, and retained the seat count in Nova Scotia). Ontario was responsible for much of the Liberal Party's majorities in the Chretien Majorities. Now Ontario has elected more Conservatives than Liberals. Outside of Toronto, there is a handful of Liberals (one in London, one in Northern Ontario, 2 or so in Ottawa, and Kingston and the Islands). You are no longer 'national'. Besides Newfoundland, the Tories are represented in every province in this country.

2. Something the Liberal Party has ignored for years, and a major flaw:

People, and power is moving westward in this country. While Ontario and Quebec will always be heavy political power weights, Western Canada is a major force now. The Liberals have 8 seats west of the Manitoba/Ontario border (5 in B.C., 1 in Sask. 1, 1 in Manitoba, and 1 in the North).

Western Canadians have dismissed the Liberal brand. This is evidenced in many ways. Look at provincial politics in the West. There is no prominent provincial Liberal party in the West (B.C. Liberals unaffiliated). It's the NDP. The NDP is the left wing force in every Western Province (hold Alberta, as it's a Conservative Stronghold). In federal politics too, the NDP is the left wing force. 4 seats in Manitoba, 1 in Alberta, quite a few in B.C.

Western Canadians have a strong sense and reliance on natural resources. The agriculture of the Prairies. The oil sands of Alberta. The natural gas and mineral development of B.C.

The Liberals always run against the prosperity of Western Canadians.

Ralph Goodale has recognized it, this party needs to seriously address it's problems in the West.

3. Your popular vote hit a historical low. 26%. Canadians voting Liberal by default is a thing of the past. Less and less Canadians are identifying with the Liberal brand. A major surprising thing is the immigrant communities are no longer reliably Liberal. Look at Richmond B.C., we took the Asian Community vote very strongly there. New Canadians no longer are Liberal by default.

4. You're near bankruptcy! Literally! The financial drain of another leadership race will be devastating on party finances. Liberals aren't donating to their party. Chretien screwed the party over with the campaign financing reforms. Conservatives are able to successfully rake in the grassroots donations of small sums, but Liberals are behind the NDP for crying out loud! This is a major problem and requires bold vision.


But I will admit the Conservative troubles, we had the weakest Liberal leader since John Turner, a divided left, and at the outset the perfect shot at a majority, and we blew it.

I know the fault of my party and I will admit them, but you Liberals on this forum need to take your heads out of the sand and realize all your deep rooted problems.

[saturn_656]

$1:

Chretien screwed the party over with the campaign financing reforms. Conservatives are able to successfully rake in the grassroots donations of small sums, but Liberals are behind the NDP for crying out loud! This is a major problem and requires bold vision.

If I could ask Chretien one question... it would be why he bankrupted his own party, intentionally.

[westmanguy]

Oh that brings another thing to mind!

I have a friend who is an executive in the Ontario Young Liberals (OYL...it's a coalition of young Provincial Liberals and young Federal Liberals in the province of Ontario), she is disgusted with the state of affairs in the Liberal Party. She cut up her membership cards a few weeks ago, and after her term runs up she plans to not renew her membership, and to join the Conservative Party when she goes off to university (not immediately, because she has partisan Liberal parents who would have a freak out over it).

She said when she first joined the party, she loved the cut throat, backstabbing atmosphere of it, but over time became disgusted by it.

The Chretien/Martin style fights are throughout the party, there is little sense of unity.

Chretien reformed campaign financing laws to outlaw corporate donations and limit private donations to $1,000, because Chretien was pushed out by Paul Martin and his supporters.

He got his revenge, now the formula gives a big advantage to the Conservatives, who are very good at getting grassroot donations.

As long as Liberals continue to stab each other in the back and have constant infighting they'll never revive.

[ridenrain]

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

$1:

Ridenrain:You might want to reconsider that comment reguarding Vancouver. The riding of Ujjal Dosanjh is being re-counted because there's only 33 votes difference. Sukh Dhaliwal also didn't win with any solid autority either. Both of these guys had a hard time winning back their ridings. The only Lib that held on with authority was Hedy Fry who has been there since BC entered confederation and is unlikely to run again.

It's pretty clear that the Libs are losing BC to the NDP and the CPC.

I didn't say the Libs owned Vancouver, I said the CPC hasn't been able to break through there.

In Metro Vancouver, depending on how you determine the boundaries, there are about 11 seats. The Conservatives took none of them. They do however, own a few seats in the outlying areas of Delta, White Rock, Langley, etc. That is the equivilant of the 905 in Ontario, where they also have strength. But the fact remains, the Conservatives are still shut out of urban, inner city Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

You're talking about something like 45+ seats out of 308, so that's not an insignificant number.

"You do not know of what you speak."


Abotsford remains Conservative
Pit Meddows/Maple Ridge remains Conservative.
Langley remains Conservative.
Port Moody remains Conservative.
Liberals lose North Vancouver to Conservatives.
Liberals lose West Vancouver to Conservatives.
South Surrey remains Conservative
Fleetwood/Port Kells remains Conservative.
NDP Lose Surrey North to Conservative.
Liberals lost Richmond to Conservatives.
Newton remains Liberal
Delta remains Conservative.
Liberals lose Richmond to Conservaties
Burnaby/New West remains NDP
Coq./New West remains NDP
Burnaby Douglass remains NDP
Vancouver South is under recount.
Liberals lose Vancouver Kingsway to NDP
East Vancouver remains NDP
Vancouver Center remains Liberal.
Vancouver Quadra remains Liberal.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/map/2008/#287

As I said, Ujjal Dosanjhin may keep Vancouver South but only by 33 vores. That's pretty sad for a standing MP and even worst for somene who's thinking of running for party leader. Hedy Fry can't live forever, and the gaps all accross the boards are getting much tighter so I wouldn't take anything for granted.

[StuntmanMike]

$1:

Derby:I don't think this time round they will do that. I think a new leader will realize that it was a mistake and simply not give in and I think a new election forced on us by Harper will see alot of Greens and NDP supporters realizing that a strong Liberal showing is the only way to defeat Harper.

People are not going to give Harper a majority out of exhaustion for the same reasons he did not win it in his third attempt. He simply doesn't deserve it.

Of course they will. What else are the Liberals going to do? In the coming parliament, the NDP and Bloc will automatically oppose the government on pretty much everything Harper does. That leaves the Liberals as "The Decider."

The Libs are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, and by the end of today, will be leaderless. They won't even have their expensive leadership convention till May, and that means they'll be in no position to take the government down anytime this year. Say what you like about Harper, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he's figured that out.

In the meantime, the Conservatives are going to be pushing through their crime agenda, some new changes to the Senate, and with the looming recession, probably significant spending cuts to government programs (something Harper's wanted to do for awhile but avoided for the sake of political expediency). They'll probably also go after a few pet Conservative peeves, like HRC's, etc. Many of these initiatives are going to be unpopular, but the Libs will have no choice but to suck it up and support the government, as they are terrified of another election. That's going to make them look even more foolish.

As I said, the Libs would have been much better off with a Conservative majority. At least then they could keep their credibility. The shit sandwiches they were forced to eat last year are going to seem like appetizers compared to what's around the corner for them.

[uwish]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

$1:

Chretien screwed the party over with the campaign financing reforms. Conservatives are able to successfully rake in the grassroots donations of small sums, but Liberals are behind the NDP for crying out loud! This is a major problem and requires bold vision.

If I could ask Chretien one question... it would be why he bankrupted his own party, intentionally.

thats actually an easy question. To cement himself in history as a 'good' leader

even though he had one of the worst rains in our nations history

[Zipperfish]

uwish uwish:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

$1:

Chretien screwed the party over with the campaign financing reforms. Conservatives are able to successfully rake in the grassroots donations of small sums, but Liberals are behind the NDP for crying out loud! This is a major problem and requires bold vision.

If I could ask Chretien one question... it would be why he bankrupted his own party, intentionally.

thats actually an easy question. To cement himself in history as a 'good' leader

even though he had one of the worst rains in our nations history

He kept us out of the Iraq War adn thereby saved a lot of lives. That in itself makes him worth his tenure. He also ruled through a time of almost unparalleled peace and prosperity in Canadian history. I think he was a great leader. Like many leaders, he didn't know when to quit. When your life is all about fighting to get to the top, it's hard to switch gears, turn your back and leave.

The Little Guy from Shawinigan is a great Canadian.

As for the Liberals, they'll be back. What happened after Mulroney--they PCs were reduced to like, what, 4 seats or something. And yet here they are, in power again. The pendulum of history.

[fifeboy]

uwish uwish:

he had one of the worst rains in our nations history

Actually, I believe that would have been at Ucluelet Brynnor Mines in B.C. on 6 Oct, 1967. Of course, I got that from Wiki, and we know how left leaning they are!

[ridenrain]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

$1:

Chretien screwed the party over with the campaign financing reforms. Conservatives are able to successfully rake in the grassroots donations of small sums, but Liberals are behind the NDP for crying out loud! This is a major problem and requires bold vision.

If I could ask Chretien one question... it would be why he bankrupted his own party, intentionally.

I think he deliberately crippled the Liberals so Martin could never surpass him. It's unbelieveable that the man would be so petty and shortsighted to do something like that but the infighting in the Liberal party is well known and well documented.

[bootlegga]

Actually, Zip, the PCs were reduced to 2 seats.

The best thing about Chretien was that he never took shit from anyone...remember that protester who got in his face. Now that's laying the smack down! Everytime I think of that, I laugh my ass off. Can you imagine a US president (or any other world leader) doing that...well maybe Putin...lol

[Zipperfish]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Actually, Zip, the PCs were reduced to 2 seats.

The best thing about Chretien was that he never took shit from anyone...remember that protester who got in his face. Now that's laying the smack down! Everytime I think of that, I laugh my ass off. Can you imagine a US president (or any other world leader) doing that...well maybe Putin...lol

And then there was Jean or Aline braining that would-be assassin wiht the Inuit carving. Not to mention the peper spray comment "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate." Classic.

[fifeboy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Actually, Zip, the PCs were reduced to 2 seats.

The best thing about Chretien was that he never took shit from anyone...remember that protester who got in his face. Now that's laying the smack down! Everytime I think of that, I laugh my ass off. Can you imagine a US president (or any other world leader) doing that...well maybe Putin...lol

Old ridenrain didn't like Dion because he was as ride called him "a wimp." But he also didn't like Chretien, who was without a doubt, a guy you would like standing behind you in a bar fight. Just can't satisfy the lad. I guess he sees Harper as "manly, but not pushy."