[Dayseed]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Didn't we go through this once before? Even if you legalize pot and sell it in liquour stores in Canada, you're not gonna stop organized crime and the growops.

Thing about it. When the US had prohibition, Canadian criminals supplied alot of their booze, illegally, despite the fact that we had repealled prohibition much earlier and you could buy it legally in Canadian ligour stores.

So, why would legalizing pot make the Criminals stop growing and sending large shipments to the US for huge profits that they wouldn't have to pay tax on?

By the look of it, the legalize marijuana now lobby isn't telling the whole truth about why they want it legalized. It looks like their motives are self indulgent and it's mostly so they can smoke their brains out, grow their own and never have to pay taxes on it or worry about being arrested for doing either.

Thumbs up. Prohibition in the United States would provide Canadian pot-gangsters with enough of a market to keep them going even if Canada made it mandatory to smoke three joints in a row to watch a CBC scripted show.

[Freakinoldguy]

Curtman Curtman:

Bootlegging is not causing the same harm to our society that humongous profits from drugs are. The violence and death just isn't even comparable, until you go up North where alcohol is prohibited, or travel back in time to when politicians thought they could legislate it away.

If people were as determined to find a way around paying taxes as you say they are, there would be no alcohol or tobacco industry. It would all be made at home. They don't though, they would rather go to the liquor store and then pick up a pack of smokes at the gas station on the way home.

So, as long as the "former" criminals pay taxes on their growops and aren't committing a crime in Canada you're fine with it and think it'll stop the criminal culture and violence attached to it?

The fact of the matter is that unless the US legalizes it there is still gonna be a huge market for illegal growops, the profits they generate and the danger associated with them since our government isn't likely to activelly collect taxes on crops grown for export illegally to the US. It would be political suicide not to mention financial, for them to do something that stupid.

So it becomes a bit of a moot point about legalization since it won't change the most violent part of the criminal culture associated with marijuana one bit. As for collecting taxes how do you differentiate between a dope smokers growop and one that's being used for illegal commercial export?

As for collecting taxes from the users, well I still don't believe people in this day and age will pay taxes on something that they got tax free before. If society was as law abiding as you say there wouldn't be an underground economy worth billions operating in Canada right now.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

$1:

As for collecting taxes from the users, well I still don't believe people in this day and age will pay taxes on something that they got tax free before. If society was as law abiding as you say there wouldn't be an underground economy worth billions operating in Canada right now.

You're asuming that the cost would be higher if it was legalized and taxed. Let's see, I currently pay $200 an ounce, but if the gov't sells it for $150(for eg) an ounce plus tax, I'm still saving over $30 bucks. But yeah, I'll still buy the black market stuff cuz the cheaper legal stuff has a tax on it

$1:

The fact of the matter is that unless the US legalizes it there is still gonna be a huge market for illegal growops, the profits they generate and the danger associated with them since our government isn't likely to activelly collect taxes on crops grown for export illegally to the US.

Legalization would kill their market up here. So why would they remain here to grow it illegally just to import it to the US? Seems to me they'd set up shop where their market is and avoid the border completely.

[Curtman]

Choban Choban:

This article is about licensed medical grow ops not illegal criminal grow ops and as such has no bearing on the legalization issue, if the government were more responsable licensing these growers and dictating the locations thay are allowed to grow in then there wouldn't be an issue, but at the same time to tell someone willing to grow for medical reasons that they have to rent or lease a large suitable place to do it would deter peolp from doing it and lower the ammount of medical herb available, it's a bit of a vicious circle.

$1:

Chilliwack Mayor Sharon Gaetz, whose council is trying to shut down about 50 grow ops, says the legalized grow operations have wrecked houses, started fires and been infiltrated by gangs.
...
“Both criminal organizations and individuals use the marijuana licence as a way to hide criminal activities,” says McLaughlin, spokesman for provincial RCMP headquarters in charge of the federal drug enforcement branch.

It has a lot to do with the legalization issue. The medical license is a license to print money in the hands of organized crime. It does a lot more harm than good without proper inspection and auditing of the licensees.

[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

So, as long as the "former" criminals pay taxes on their growops and aren't committing a crime in Canada you're fine with it and think it'll stop the criminal culture and violence attached to it?

The fact of the matter is that unless the US legalizes it there is still gonna be a huge market for illegal growops, the profits they generate and the danger associated with them since our government isn't likely to activelly collect taxes on crops grown for export illegally to the US. It would be political suicide not to mention financial, for them to do something that stupid.

So it becomes a bit of a moot point about legalization since it won't change the most violent part of the criminal culture associated with marijuana one bit. As for collecting taxes how do you differentiate between a dope smokers growop and one that's being used for illegal commercial export?

As for collecting taxes from the users, well I still don't believe people in this day and age will pay taxes on something that they got tax free before. If society was as law abiding as you say there wouldn't be an underground economy worth billions operating in Canada right now.

Bronfman Family

$1:

The hotel business boomed with railway construction and by the middle of WWI the family was running 3 profitable hotels in Winnipeg. With the coming of PROHIBITION in Canada, the Bronfmans turned their energies to the interprovincial package liquor trade, purchasing stocks of spirits which were sold at a good profit.

During the later years of prohibition in the US (1920-33) Sam Bronfman, who was the driving force in Seagrams, developed a large business in export sales to that country. When prohibition ended in 1933, Seagrams was ready with huge amounts of well-aged and carefully blended spirits which were sold bottled to the consumer through a network of distributors, a marketing approach developed by Sam.

Success in the US brought huge profits and led to the company's expansion throughout the world. Seven Crown and Seagram's VO became the largest-selling brands of whisky in the world. Under Sam's leadership the company invested in wineries and distilleries and by 1965 reached sales in 119 countries of over $1 billion.

Again, the history of alcohol prohibition proves you wrong.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

$1:

As for collecting taxes from the users, well I still don't believe people in this day and age will pay taxes on something that they got tax free before. If society was as law abiding as you say there wouldn't be an underground economy worth billions operating in Canada right now.

You're asuming that the cost would be higher if it was legalized and taxed. Let's see, I currently pay $200 an ounce, but if the gov't sells it for $150(for eg) an ounce plus tax, I'm still saving over $30 bucks. But yeah, I'll still buy the black market stuff cuz the cheaper legal stuff has a tax on it

$1:

The fact of the matter is that unless the US legalizes it there is still gonna be a huge market for illegal growops, the profits they generate and the danger associated with them since our government isn't likely to activelly collect taxes on crops grown for export illegally to the US.

Legalization would kill their market up here. So why would they remain here to grow it illegally just to import it to the US? Seems to me they'd set up shop where their market is and avoid the border completely.

Another factor is going to be convenience and quality assurance. Why even deal with hard to find criminal organizations who will try and rip you off to inflate their own profits when you can hop down to your local weed store and select from a variety of brands all quality controlled like any cigarette or cigar. Hell this might even be a really good industry for mail order. Even if illegal operations decide to undercut the legal price they'll still have their numbers decimated by legal operations as scores of users opt for the ease and convenience of legal shops. A few of my smoker friends managed to find some individually owned snack shops in Toronto to buy tax free smokes but nobody I know has ever bought illegal alcohol (not counting underage stuff).

Legalization won't erase all the crime connected to it (at least not for years to come) but then so what? There is illegal operations surrounding cars, electronics, etc. Its much cheaper to buy stolen goods but how many people choose that route as opposed to buying it legally and paying HST on it?

I figure legalizing it will see the flourishing of lots and lots of small time dealers growing their own and supplying a bunch of their buddies/acquaintances to make enough to live on. A home business no different then the homemade soap business a friend runs. Hell the capitalists should be supporting this wholesale (pun intended).

[IamLib]

How do we stop Canada from becoming a safe haven for organized criminals that grow in Canada, and smuggle into the USA where they are often paid with unregistered guns? I like marijuana but I dont like guns.

[Choban]

$1:

without proper inspection and auditing of the licensees.

This is the issue, not legalizing recreational use, but auditing and inspecting legal licensed growers, if the government is unable to keep organized crime out of medical production then they need to setup an organization of their own that is licensed to grow under strict conditions and constant supervision.

[andyt]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Thumbs up. Prohibition in the United States would provide Canadian pot-gangsters with enough of a market to keep them going even if Canada made it mandatory to smoke three joints in a row to watch a CBC scripted show.

So we're doomed to continue our senseless pot prohibition unless the US changes theirs? If we remove the production of illegal pot for home use, it will certainly make a big dent, allowing resources to be concentrated on preventing the production of illegal pot for export. Growers will face a choice between being legal and lower profit or illegal and higher profit.

Portugal decriminalized drugs with good effect, even tho Spain did not - do you think they have the same problems you are suggesting.

Sometimes half a loaf is better than none. If we at least quit criminalizing production and consumption at home, it will bring big bucks into government coffers, save a fortune on law enforcement and the justice system and quit ruining the lives of otherwise good citizens. And shrink by a large margin the profits available to gangs. It won't be a perfect solution but one that is better than what we have.

[Dayseed]

andyt andyt:

So we're doomed to continue our senseless pot prohibition unless the US changes theirs?

Well that's quite an overstatement of what I wrote. My point is that unilateral lifting of prohibition isn't going to end illegal marijuana grow-ops in Canada although it may make a "dent".

I don't have a study handy so feel free to ignore this, but the last thing I read on domestic pot production had a whopping 85% or so headed to the US.

Which is why I reiterate that unless the US ends their war on pot, Canada isn't going to see much improvement at all. 100 homes in your town growing dope down to 85 homes probably wouldn't make you click your heels in giddy excitement.

$1:

If we remove the production of illegal pot for home use, it will certainly make a big dent, allowing resources to be concentrated on preventing the production of illegal pot for export. Growers will face a choice between being legal and lower profit or illegal and higher profit.

I don't think that's quite what I'm getting at. I don't know the numbers for British Columbia in terms of homes used to grow medicinal marijuana that strictly limit themselves to domestic consumption; how would we know?

Illegal grows in homes are dangerous period. I don't care who the intended audience is. I'm also not referring to personal use grows, I'm talking commercial scale where trafficking is the intent.

$1:

Portugal decriminalized drugs with good effect, even tho Spain did not - do you think they have the same problems you are suggesting.

I don't know, I've never looked into it. It may be a model worth considering.

$1:

Sometimes half a loaf is better than none. If we at least quit criminalizing production and consumption at home, it will bring big bucks into government coffers, save a fortune on law enforcement and the justice system and quit ruining the lives of otherwise good citizens. And shrink by a large margin the profits available to gangs. It won't be a perfect solution but one that is better than what we have.

I disagree about decriminalizing production. The United States is antsy about their borders anyway without advertising the fact that Canada is now openly producing marijuana knowing it will flow into their country, but fuck it, we're making bucks off of it.

To put it another way, Canadians often criticize America's lax gun laws and lament the flow of illegal handguns into Canada. We would be doing that to them, just with weed. From my read on our neighbours, they think pot is a scourge and guns are constitutional. They may tighten up the border further, hurting Canadian exports through delays.

Would it wreck the proceeds of crime for gangsters here? Probably. Is there an easy solution? Well, not without the US ending pot prohibition.

[Curtman]

Dayseed Dayseed:

I disagree about decriminalizing production. The United States is antsy about their borders anyway without advertising the fact that Canada is now openly producing marijuana knowing it will flow into their country, but fuck it, we're making bucks off of it.

To put it another way, Canadians often criticize America's lax gun laws and lament the flow of illegal handguns into Canada. We would be doing that to them, just with weed. From my read on our neighbours, they think pot is a scourge and guns are constitutional. They may tighten up the border further, hurting Canadian exports through delays.

Would it wreck the proceeds of crime for gangsters here? Probably. Is there an easy solution? Well, not without the US ending pot prohibition.

I like the handguns -vs- marijuana analogy. They have legalized handguns, protected by their constitution... But we are expected to imprison people for growing plants.

Craziness ensues.

[Freakinoldguy]

Curtman Curtman:

$1:

During the later years of prohibition in the US (1920-33) Sam Bronfman, who was the driving force in Seagrams, developed a large business in export sales to that country[/b]. When prohibition ended in 1933, Seagrams was ready with huge amounts of well-aged and carefully blended spirits which were sold bottled to the consumer through a network of distributors, a marketing approach developed by Sam.

Again, the history of alcohol prohibition proves you wrong.

Did you even read what you posted?


Had they not ended prohibition in the US Bronfman would still have been making legal booze in Canada and illegally selling it in the US for huge profits, which is still bootlegging no matter how you couch it. There's to much money for criminal growers not to keep large grow ops for export to the US and with these growops comes the violence and criminal behaviour.

To remove the violence from the drug trade in Canada, the US is going to have to legalize it and until that happens nothing is going to change on either side of the border.


So, instead of bitching about our laws here in Canada you might be better served to go to Washington DC, and Lobby the President to legalize it it America, so our exporters can hang up their colours and put on their 3 piece suits.

[rickc]

Dayseed Dayseed:

andyt andyt:

So we're doomed to continue our senseless pot prohibition unless the US changes theirs?

Well that's quite an overstatement of what I wrote. My point is that unilateral lifting of prohibition isn't going to end illegal marijuana grow-ops in Canada although it may make a "dent".

I don't have a study handy so feel free to ignore this, but the last thing I read on domestic pot production had a whopping 85% or so headed to the US.

Which is why I reiterate that unless the US ends their war on pot, Canada isn't going to see much improvement at all. 100 homes in your town growing dope down to 85 homes probably wouldn't make you click your heels in giddy excitement.

$1:

If we remove the production of illegal pot for home use, it will certainly make a big dent, allowing resources to be concentrated on preventing the production of illegal pot for export. Growers will face a choice between being legal and lower profit or illegal and higher profit.

I don't think that's quite what I'm getting at. I don't know the numbers for British Columbia in terms of homes used to grow medicinal marijuana that strictly limit themselves to domestic consumption; how would we know?

Illegal grows in homes are dangerous period. I don't care who the intended audience is. I'm also not referring to personal use grows, I'm talking commercial scale where trafficking is the intent.

$1:

Portugal decriminalized drugs with good effect, even tho Spain did not - do you think they have the same problems you are suggesting.

I don't know, I've never looked into it. It may be a model worth considering.

$1:

Sometimes half a loaf is better than none. If we at least quit criminalizing production and consumption at home, it will bring big bucks into government coffers, save a fortune on law enforcement and the justice system and quit ruining the lives of otherwise good citizens. And shrink by a large margin the profits available to gangs. It won't be a perfect solution but one that is better than what we have.

I disagree about decriminalizing production. The United States is antsy about their borders anyway without advertising the fact that Canada is now openly producing marijuana knowing it will flow into their country, but fuck it, we're making bucks off of it.

To put it another way, Canadians often criticize America's lax gun laws and lament the flow of illegal handguns into Canada. We would be doing that to them, just with weed. From my read on our neighbours, they think pot is a scourge and guns are constitutional. They may tighten up the border further, hurting Canadian exports through delays.

Would it wreck the proceeds of crime for gangsters here? Probably. Is there an easy solution? Well, not without the US ending pot prohibition.[/quote http://www.cannabisfacts.ca/#ten I would have to question those numbers. That link sais that only 2% of weed in the States comes from Canada. Here in Las Vegas I can pay up to $100 for an ounce of Mexican dirt weed {very prevalent}, or I can pay up to $300 for some ass kicking chronic that is almost all localy grown. I haven't heard anyone making the claim of B.C. bud since I moved here. Growers found out a long time ago that they can use the best seed and use hydroponics to grow ass kicking weed indoors in any location. You don't have to deal with customs officials,and if you keep your plant count low enough you don't have to worry about the feds either.

The only way the Mexicans make a buck is to undercut the competition and sell an inferior product. Is anyone willing to grow ,smuggle across the border and sell B.C. bud for a cheaper price than I can get now for local chronic? If anyone could all it would do IMHO is drive down the price of local chronic. Good for the buyers bad for the growers. I say the first one to fully legalize and tax weed is the big winner. Its like Nevada and gambling. Let everyone else bitch and whine all they want to about a perceived vice,someone is going to be making a profit and tax revenue off of it. Why not be first in line to cash in?

[rickc]

Wow something went very wrong with that post. My content should have started after my link.

[Curtman]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Had they not ended prohibition in the US Bronfman would still have been making legal booze in Canada and illegally selling it in the US for huge profits, which is still bootlegging no matter how you couch it. There's to much money for criminal growers not to keep large grow ops for export to the US and with these growops comes the violence and criminal behaviour.

To remove the violence from the drug trade in Canada, the US is going to have to legalize it and until that happens nothing is going to change on either side of the border.

So, instead of bitching about our laws here in Canada you might be better served to go to Washington DC, and Lobby the President to legalize it it America, so our exporters can hang up their colours and put on their 3 piece suits.

Yes I did read it. Did you? Ending the prohibition of alcohol here in Canada before the U.S. was a great success. The criminals became law abiding, tax paying corporations. There was no need to convince the U.S. to go first. They followed after we proved regulation was the better way.