[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Police and fire service are public goods.

Not if you live in Chicago.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

The post right above you came from the Victoria Transit Policy Institute.

A totally unbiased organisation.

Next you'll be sharing with us a report from the Canadian Pothead Association about how legalizing marijuana will have all sorts of wonderful benefits for society.

Well fool you for taking me at my word. That's the Victoria Transport Policy Institute. Didn't bother following the link, huh. Easier to just do the usual CKA smear job.

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

$1:

Gasoline Taxes and Tolls Pay for Only a Third of State & Local Road Spending

Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoli ... d-spending

That's a problem with implementation, not with the idea. It's not the fault of the theory if those implementing it don't do it correctly.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

$1:

Gasoline Taxes and Tolls Pay for Only a Third of State & Local Road Spending

Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoli ... d-spending

Andy, unless you're quoting total aggregate revenues and direct expenditures then you're wrong.

You can quote all of the biased organizations you want, all that matters is how much a jurisdiction receives in total aggregate fuel taxes and how much they spend.

It's pretty simple and I suppose that's why you keep dodging it.

Total aggregate fuel taxes = per volume tax (typically Federal excise tax and then a Provincial excise or State excise tax) + VAT + Sales tax (which is assessed against the per volume taxed price of fuel...a tax on a tax).

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

$1:

Gasoline Taxes and Tolls Pay for Only a Third of State & Local Road Spending

Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoli ... d-spending

That's a problem with implementation, not with the idea. It's not the fault of the theory if those implementing it don't do it correctly.

Sorry, didn't know we were theorizing. Thought we were looking at the situation as is.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Well fool you for taking me at my word. That's the Victoria Transport Policy Institute. Didn't bother following the link, huh. Easier to just do the usual CKA smear job.

I'm familiar with them. They're the good people who f*cked up the E&N.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Why not apply the same logic to fire or police then? At what point do you say that it's important for there to be an efficient and affordable service available to all? Also, to the extent that improved transit relieves congestion on roadways (not to mention improved emissions and air quality), you are proposing the drivers benefit at transit rider's expense.

Because there's a difference between a public and private good. Police and fire service are public goods. People getting their asses to work is not. And how is it a benefit to drivers to tax road use and gasoline? My proposal will encourage the use of public transit over driving.

Without taking care of the private good, you don't have the public good.

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

Sorry, didn't know we were theorizing. Thought we were looking at the situation as is.

I thought we were doing both? Looking at the reality and where it can be improved upon. Your initial assertion was that we don't pay for roads with user fees. That's not true. We just don't do it as well as we should.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Without taking care of the private good, you don't have the public good.

You should submit that tidbit to a fortune-cookie maker. Not sure what else it's good for.

[andyt]

People getting their asses to work certainly is a public good, since without it none of the public goods would get funded.

Lemmy, your theory is great. Gas taxes would shoot up by 50 cents a liter according to one post I made. Transit would cost at double, probably more. Many people are barely making it now, raising either would mean they can't afford to go to work anymore, so wages would have to rise, at least on the bottom. Then Raydan will worry about how much prices will rise because of greater transportation costs, so wages will have to rise to meet that. I'm sure it can all be made to balance out, but the adjustment period would be "interesting."

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

You should submit that tidbit to a fortune-cookie maker. Not sure what else it's good for.

For most people, it's common sense. I guess you're the exception.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Lemmy Lemmy:

You should submit that tidbit to a fortune-cookie maker. Not sure what else it's good for.

For most people, it's common sense. I guess you're the exception.

Yeah I bet this makes real sense to the people that used to rely on the Toronto-Cochrane rail service until this past winter. Funny how their mass transit connection to the city was bumped and now they get to help pay for the GTHA's mass transit overhaul. A mass transit system they will now have to DRIVE to in order to access it.
Fucking brilliant.

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Lemmy Lemmy:

You should submit that tidbit to a fortune-cookie maker. Not sure what else it's good for.

For most people, it's common sense. I guess you're the exception.

Yeah I bet this makes real sense to the people that used to rely on the Toronto-Cochrane rail service until this past winter. Funny how their mass transit connection to the city was bumped and now they get to help pay for the GTHA's mass transit overhaul. A mass transit system they will now have to DRIVE to in order to access it.
Fucking brilliant.

Way off topic; but thanks for the effort. Perhaps read the context of my post before you jump in.

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

People getting their asses to work certainly is a public good, since without it none of the public goods would get funded.

Lemmy, your theory is great. Gas taxes would shoot up by 50 cents a liter according to one post I made. Transit would cost at double, probably more. Many people are barely making it now, raising either would mean they can't afford to go to work anymore, so wages would have to rise, at least on the bottom. Then Raydan will worry about how much prices will rise because of greater transportation costs, so wages will have to rise to meet that. I'm sure it can all be made to balance out, but the adjustment period would be "interesting."

We'll have to disagree on your first statement. I'm not following what you'd like to see. If you disagree with me on the very principle that those who use a service ought to be ones who pay for it, I don't see much of a chance at common ground.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

People getting their asses to work certainly is a public good, since without it none of the public goods would get funded.

Lemmy, your theory is great. Gas taxes would shoot up by 50 cents a liter according to one post I made. Transit would cost at double, probably more. Many people are barely making it now, raising either would mean they can't afford to go to work anymore, so wages would have to rise, at least on the bottom. Then Raydan will worry about how much prices will rise because of greater transportation costs, so wages will have to rise to meet that. I'm sure it can all be made to balance out, but the adjustment period would be "interesting."

We'll have to disagree on your first statement.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

For most people, it's common sense. I guess you're the exception.

Yeah I bet this makes real sense to the people that used to rely on the Toronto-Cochrane rail service until this past winter. Funny how their mass transit connection to the city was bumped and now they get to help pay for the GTHA's mass transit overhaul. A mass transit system they will now have to DRIVE to in order to access it.
Fucking brilliant.

Way off topic; but thanks for the effort. Perhaps read the context of my post before you jump in.

Off topic? The TOPIC is mass transit in the GTHA and how much it's gonna cost every Ontario household, INCLUDING those who just recently had their access to mass transit eliminated.
If that's off-topic, well then there's no talking to you about this subject.