[peck420]

andyt andyt:

@ Peck; The post right above you came from the Victoria Transit Policy Institute. My post right above that talks about the Vancouver situation, tho I screwed up the link. So you're not being honest in your critique or just stopped reading as soon as you saw my first post.

Not being honest? It would appear that only one of us has actually read the report...and it ain't you. They are intentionally using US tax and fee figures because US tax and fee figures (in regards to gas) are substantially lower then Canada's. That gives the report the illusion of being correct, when they haven't even started to compare apples to apples.

$1:

It's hard find a good report on this for Canada. If you have something solid that rebuts what I said, feel free to post that. Otherwise you're just being a weasel to criticize what I posted with no backing for yourself. Easier to do that tho.

What is hard to find? We know full well that a very small portion of the currently collected tax (user fee) is actually applied to the intended use. And the total tax collected dwarfs, even the most pessimistic, infrastructure outlook.

$1:

And, it was Bart that challenged my contention, so US figures seem appropriate for him. What is true in the US is that gas taxes fund highways, not city roads. Pretty well the same here.

That is between you and Bart and has zero relevance to a Canadian infrastructure discussion.

$1:

In fact, looking back i only posted one US source, so who's being dishonest here?

Stop reading the first paragraph and read the actual report. You are the one posting it, you should at least be knowledgeable on it.

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Off topic? The TOPIC is mass transit in the GTHA and how much it's gonna cost every Ontario household, INCLUDING those who just recently had their access to mass transit eliminated.
If that's off-topic, well then there's no talking to you about this subject.

My comment about 'common sense' was directed towards Lemmy and wasn't directly related to the actual topic of the discussion. It was related to public/private 'good'.

Read the entire post and understand the context before you get all bitchy. You fucked up, not me.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I'm not following what you'd like to see. If you disagree with me on the very principle that those who use a service ought to be ones who pay for it, I don't see much of a chance at common ground.

Most government services are not based on user pay, but pay according to ability, because they are funded primarily by progressive taxes. Roads should probably fall into that category as well, but with a hefty user pay element to reduce use. We have to get people out of cars in urban areas. So you charge the cars and subsidize the transit.

In your proposal, you really leave people nowhere to go. You'd have to way raise gas taxes, since municipal roads are mostly funded by property taxes. I can hear the screaming now. But then you also want to greatly increase transit fees, by at least 100%, probably more. I just don't see how that will work, certainly be a very painful adjustment period.

[andyt]

@Peck: Municipalities in Canada get no gas taxes, they pay for their roads mostly from property tax. It's municipal roads that are mostly involved in a transit vs car discussion. Maybe the provincial govts take in enough in gas taxes to cover provincial highways, but certainly not near enough to cover municipal roads. Ie everybody that lives in a municipality pays for the roads, whether they drive or not. For gas taxes to pay for municipal roads, they would have to rise substantially.

[BartSimpson]

Here's a proposal, Andy:

I think you and I both agree that roads should be wholly funded by motorists' fuel taxes, vehicle registrations, and etc. Essentially, if you use it then you pay for what you use.

Following that logic, all mass transit systems need to be self-sufficient and should not take away from any other government budgets - like roads. Ideally, the simple way to effect this is to make these systems privately owned and operated. Perhaps government could even earn revenue by this method. Given that passenger rail used to be highly profitable then it stands to reason that it could be again.

Bicyclists should also be licensed and have to pay registration fees on their bicycles if they're going to use the bicycles on city streets or government-provided bicycle trails. And those bicycle trails should be maintained solely by revenues raised from their users.

Airports should also be cut off from the general funds and their operations should be supported solely by their users.

Add to that mix sports arenas and stadiums. Why taxpayer monies are used to fund private enterprises like these utterly escapes me.

Oh, and end subsidies to attract movie productions to cities. The movie producers, like everyone else, should have to pay their own freight.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Off topic? The TOPIC is mass transit in the GTHA and how much it's gonna cost every Ontario household, INCLUDING those who just recently had their access to mass transit eliminated.
If that's off-topic, well then there's no talking to you about this subject.

My comment about 'common sense' was directed towards Lemmy and wasn't directly related to the actual topic of the discussion. It was related to public/private 'good'.

Read the entire post and understand the context before you get all bitchy. You fucked up, not me.

If you want to bring up the subject of "common sense" in this thread, regardless of the context, then I have the right to point out how this makes ZERO sense for the people that used the Toronto-Cochrane train.
Or, instead of acting like a petulant child and calling my post off-topic, you could just explain how it makes sense for a region to help fund mass transit IN Toronto, that recently had its mass transit access to Toronto cut off.

That IS what this thread is about n'est ce pas?

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

If you want to bring up the subject of "common sense" in this thread, regardless of the context, then I have the right to point out how this makes ZERO sense for the people that used the Toronto-Cochrane train.
Or, instead of acting like a petulant child and calling my post off-topic, you could just explain how it makes sense for a region to help fund mass transit IN Toronto, that recently had its mass transit access to Toronto cut off.

That IS what this thread is about n'est ce pas?

This isn't just about funding transit in Toronto. You jump in this topic with all your bravado and you don't know what you're talking about.

This plan effects Durham, York, Markham, Toronto, Halton, Peel and Hamilton. This isn't about some butt-fuck nowhere town like Cochrane that wasn't efficient and was costing the province a fortune.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

If you want to bring up the subject of "common sense" in this thread, regardless of the context, then I have the right to point out how this makes ZERO sense for the people that used the Toronto-Cochrane train.
Or, instead of acting like a petulant child and calling my post off-topic, you could just explain how it makes sense for a region to help fund mass transit IN Toronto, that recently had its mass transit access to Toronto cut off.

That IS what this thread is about n'est ce pas?

This isn't just about funding transit in Toronto. You jump in this topic with all your bravado and you don't know what you're talking about.

This plan effects Durham, York, Markham, Toronto, Halton, Peel and Hamilton. This isn't about some butt-fuck nowhere town like Cochrane that wasn't efficient and was costing the province a fortune.

Toronto, GTA, what the fuck ever. The run was also a Toronto-Cochrane milk-run, meaning it made several stops along the way. Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, South River, North Bay, Temagami, Cobalt, New Liskeard,
Englehart, Swastika, Matheson, Porquis and Cochrane.
Now admittedly, they replaced the train with busses though I'm not really sure just how much more economically efficient that will be. There is another issue though. The train ride from TO to Cochrane is about 11 hours. OTOH, inter-city busses typically take 2-3 times longer than it should to get anywhere. That translates into the better part of an entire day at least, to a day and a half to get from TO to Cochrane.

Now, just because you don't give a damn about people living in "butt-fuck nowhere" doesn't mean they don't count for shit. Believe it or not, Ontario doesn't begin and end at the border of the GTA.

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Toronto, GTA, what the fuck ever. The run was also a Toronto-Cochrane milk-run, meaning it made several stops along the way. Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, South River, North Bay, Temagami, Cobalt, New Liskeard,
Englehart, Swastika, Matheson, Porquis and Cochrane.
Now admittedly, they replaced the train with busses though I'm not really sure just how much more economically efficient that will be. There is another issue though. The train ride from TO to Cochrane is about 11 hours. OTOH, inter-city busses typically take 2-3 times longer than it should to get anywhere. That translates into the better part of an entire day at least, to a day and a half to get from TO to Cochrane.

I don't get what your point is here. Because the government removed a terribly inefficient train run which it was subsidizing $400 for every passenger/every ride you think the rest of Ontario should get nothing?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Now, just because you don't give a damn about people living in "butt-fuck nowhere" doesn't mean they don't count for shit. Believe it or not, Ontario doesn't begin and end at the border of the GTA.

And just because you don't give a shit about the GTA doesn't mean they don't count for shit. They do count, and there's a lot of people that are the engine of the Provincial economy.

Northern Ontario cannot and should not expect the same transit services as one of the largest Cities in North America.

[BartSimpson]

Not sure who Not sure who:

Now, just because you don't give a damn about people living in "butt-f*ck nowhere" doesn't mean they don't count for sh!t. Believe it or not, Ontario doesn't begin and end at the border of the GTA.

I think the issue there is that it does not make economic sense to provide even light rail to rural areas when the costs run as much as $100 million per mile to install.

It'd be cheaper to just pay to move all the rural commuters to nice homes inside the GTA.

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

@Peck: Municipalities in Canada get no gas taxes, they pay for their roads mostly from property tax. It's municipal roads that are mostly involved in a transit vs car discussion. Maybe the provincial govts take in enough in gas taxes to cover provincial highways, but certainly not near enough to cover municipal roads. Ie everybody that lives in a municipality pays for the roads, whether they drive or not. For gas taxes to pay for municipal roads, they would have to rise substantially.

Bullshit.

Where do you think the couple billion Toronto gets from the Province comes from?

I am just hazarding a guess here, but I think gas tax revenues probably play in.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Toronto, GTA, what the fuck ever. The run was also a Toronto-Cochrane milk-run, meaning it made several stops along the way. Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, South River, North Bay, Temagami, Cobalt, New Liskeard,
Englehart, Swastika, Matheson, Porquis and Cochrane.
Now admittedly, they replaced the train with busses though I'm not really sure just how much more economically efficient that will be. There is another issue though. The train ride from TO to Cochrane is about 11 hours. OTOH, inter-city busses typically take 2-3 times longer than it should to get anywhere. That translates into the better part of an entire day at least, to a day and a half to get from TO to Cochrane.

I don't get what your point is here. Because the government removed a terribly inefficient train run which it was subsidizing $400 for every passenger/every ride you think the rest of Ontario should get nothing?

Oh geez, I had no idea the GTHA was "the rest of Ontario. We can see where your head is at.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Now, just because you don't give a damn about people living in "butt-fuck nowhere" doesn't mean they don't count for shit. Believe it or not, Ontario doesn't begin and end at the border of the GTA.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

And just because you don't give a shit about the GTA doesn't mean they don't count for shit. They do count, and there's a lot of people that are the engine of the Provincial economy.

Newsflash dumbass: I LIVE IN THE GTA!!!

[raydan]

Watch out PA9, you might get on his ignore list.

[2Cdo]

raydan raydan:

Watch out PA9, you might get on his ignore list.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Not sure who Not sure who:

Now, just because you don't give a damn about people living in "butt-f*ck nowhere" doesn't mean they don't count for sh!t. Believe it or not, Ontario doesn't begin and end at the border of the GTA.

I think the issue there is that it does not make economic sense to provide even light rail to rural areas when the costs run as much as $100 million per mile to install.

It'd be cheaper to just pay to move all the rural commuters to nice homes inside the GTA.

The line to Cochrane has been in existence since 1909. Of course it being run by a bureaucracy would have nothing to do with cost inefficiencies. Now, that single train has been replaced by a fleet of busses.

I've also noticed that despite the plan for more than a decade now to extend the GO Transit light rail to the Region of Waterloo,(population over 500,000) none of these latest plans include that extension. There's a SHIT-LOAD of commuters who travel from the Waterloo Region to the GTA for work every day.
But hey, at least they'll still get to drive the one hour or more each way for work so they can pay for the people of the GTA to have better transit.