[andyt]

eureka eureka:

Why is it a leap? The evidence is plain to see. The Middle Classes are shrinking in all countries that have suffered the scourge of "modern conservatism." The disparities in income and wealth are increasing in those countries.

In those countries that have not capitulated, Sweden, Denmark etc: where Unionism is strong (85% in Sweden), the Middle Classes are not disappearing, Poverty is lower; in the case of Denmark, about one fifth of the North American and British rate.

It is neocon and neolib philosophies that are causing the decline of both civil society and economic security.

What is conservative about that?

But you've got to admit, seeing the Scandinavian states as role models is not usually seen as a conservative position in Canada.

The guys that are attacking you here aren't even dyed in the wool conservatives. Don't know what's going on except some of your statements are a bit broad - but then who's aren't? And people love to go after newbies here.

I've gotta say that so far Harper hasn't proved as much a neocon nutbar as I thought he would be with his majority. The instincts are there, and some of his base are calling for it, but so far he's been pretty moderate. Let's hope he keeps that up. What I'd really like to see is the ghost of Robert Stanfield give him a visit.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

eureka eureka:

I have met many educated twits but it would certainly cut into Right Wing Republican electoral support in your country and into the CPC here.

I attempt a rational discussion and you respond with an insult.

Nice.

Unless you are an "educated twit", how is that an insult?

I suppose you might read between the lines to think that it means that conservatives are less educated than liberals, but based on my experience that's usually the truth. In my experience, liberals usually focus on book smarts (education), while conservatives usually focus on street smarts (self-made man/entrepeneurship/etc).

I think each path has advantages and disadvantages, without one necessarily being superior to the other.

[Zipperfish]

There's a different between right-wing and conservatism. Today's conservatives are the liberals, in that they seek to conserve the status quo, whereas the right-wingers--at least those of the tea party variety--are radicals. By definition, they are the opposite of conservatives.

As of the Scandinavian countries, it bears remembering that taxes are very, very high. So while the middle class in the US support the rich, the middle class in Scandinavia support the poor. Either way, it's the middle class propping the system up.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

There's a different between right-wing and conservatism. Today's conservatives are the liberals, in that they seek to conserve the status quo, whereas the right-wingers--at least those of the tea party variety--are radicals. By definition, they are the opposite of conservatives.

As of the Scandinavian countries, it bears remembering that taxes are very, very high. So while the middle class in the US support the rich, the middle class in Scandinavia support the poor. Either way, it's the middle class propping the system up.

But as Eureka pointed out, there are far fewer poor to prop up. The middle class is not hurting in the Scandinavian countries - life is good. And, they had to make adjustments too, move away from a more socialist model to opening the door to free enterprise. They just did it intelligently and in a way that didn't decimate the middle class. As pretty well every political thinker has pointed out, a democracy is only as strong as it's middle class.

Looks like Denmark is taking a turn to the left today.

[eureka]

andyt andyt:

eureka eureka:

Why is it a leap? The evidence is plain to see. The Middle Classes are shrinking in all countries that have suffered the scourge of "modern conservatism." The disparities in income and wealth are increasing in those countries.

In those countries that have not capitulated, Sweden, Denmark etc: where Unionism is strong (85% in Sweden), the Middle Classes are not disappearing, Poverty is lower; in the case of Denmark, about one fifth of the North American and British rate.

It is neocon and neolib philosophies that are causing the decline of both civil society and economic security.

What is conservative about that?

But you've got to admit, seeing the Scandinavian states as role models is not usually seen as a conservative position in Canada.

The guys that are attacking you here aren't even dyed in the wool conservatives. Don't know what's going on except some of your statements are a bit broad - but then who's aren't? And people love to go after newbies here.

I've gotta say that so far Harper hasn't proved as much a neocon nutbar as I thought he would be with his majority. The instincts are there, and some of his base are calling for it, but so far he's been pretty moderate. Let's hope he keeps that up. What I'd really like to see is the ghost of Robert Stanfield give him a visit.

Interesting, though, that both Sweden and Denmark have Right of Centre governments and that they have acted in the way that I suggest conservatives should. They have conserved and have not tried to turn the clock back or remake the countries in some unequal "conservative" paradise.

AS for Harper, I am less sanguine about him than you are. He is doing what he desires, incrementally.

The two assaults on unionism as practically the first acts of his government make clear his intentions. The new selling out to the USA in the security negotiations is another example.

The Wheat Board: Gun Control; the Law and Order agenda with its prisons and conditions that will ensure that a fresh, new supply of prisoners is available to fill them.to ; putting women "in their places" by cancelling just about every programme that was designed to assist women; his Cromwellian attitude to Parliament and democracy.

Where does it end. The Canada we all grew up in and, in general, prospered in, has almost disappeared already in ways that have not been noticed by a public that is increasingly struggling to survive and unreflective on the reasons or the changes.

Harperland!

[andyt]

Ok, Ok, I take it back. I'm so focused on Harper not copying the Teabaggers, I forget about the drip drip drip of his agenda. You' got to admit he's a disciplined man.

[eureka]

andyt andyt:

Ok, Ok, I take it back. I'm so focused on Harper not copying the Teabaggers, I forget about the drip drip drip of his agenda. You' got to admit he's a disciplined man.

Indeed

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

eureka eureka:

Why is it a leap? The evidence is plain to see. The Middle Classes are shrinking in all countries that have suffered the scourge of "modern conservatism." The disparities in income and wealth are increasing in those countries.

In those countries that have not capitulated, Sweden, Denmark etc: where Unionism is strong (85% in Sweden), the Middle Classes are not disappearing, Poverty is lower; in the case of Denmark, about one fifth of the North American and British rate.

It is neocon and neolib philosophies that are causing the decline of both civil society and economic security.

What is conservative about that?

The guys that are attacking you here aren't even dyed in the wool conservatives. Don't know what's going on except some of your statements are a bit broad - but then who's aren't? And people love to go after newbies here.

Actually, no one has been attacking him in this thread, just posing questions which have gotten little more than broad sweeping claims.

Your cheer leading is misguided... again.

[BeaverFever]

And this just in:

Earlier today, a group of 155 urban studies academics, professional urban planners, designers, and engineers, from both the public and private sector, have written a letter to Rob Ford condemning his waterfront plan and urging him to support the existing Waterfront Toronto program. The 5-page letter outlines 6 major criticisms of Ford's plan and can be read here:

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01320/An_open_letter_aga_1320433a.pdf

Excerpt below:

Intelligent People Intelligent People:

We are writing to you at this time because we are extremely concerned that recent proposals to radically alter plans and development control for the Lower Don Lands are ill-conceived, reckless, and, if adopted, will result in irrevocable harm to the City, as well as higher costs and further delays.


....
1. Flawed Reasoning. The facts concerning Waterfront Toronto’s history, performance and current plans have been misrepresented in the recent Port Lands proposal endorsed by the Mayor. The alternative vision is deeply flawed.

2. A Flawed Vision. The proposed plans do not represent a “bold new vision” for our
Waterfront. Rather, they are a tired recycling of 1960’s thinking. The Lower Don Lands are not
Disney World.

3. An Inferior Plan. The elements of the alternative plan so far released to the press quite simply are shockingly inferior to the current plan.

4. Delays. The new proposal would also require a new Environmental Assessment, precinct plan Official Plan Amendments, zoning and public consultations. This would take years and would result in a guaranteed major OMB hearing. In the meantime, major developers who are now ready to invest and build in accordance with the existing Plan would be put on hold and may go elsewhere.

5. Long-Term City Building. Further, despite the Mayor’s claims, the proposed new plan is not, in fact, an exercise in city building at all. Rather, at its core it seems to be simply a desperate attempt to sell off extremely valuable city assets at bargain basement prices to developers to raise a one-time contribution towards reducing the City’s deficit. The “city building argument” is just window-dressing for a land deal that will benefit the parties involved but that will leave the City much poorer in the long run. The extreme short-sightedness of this should be apparent to all.

6. Consultation and Democratic Process. The backroom nature of this proposal, the lack of open consultation and the absence of City staff input into the process are inexcusable given the years of extensive consultation associated with the existing plan. This mode of decision-making represents a very serious step backwards in the governance of the City, and, over and above the immediate threat it poses for proper development of the Lower Don Lands, it poses a very real threat to democratic decision-making in the City.

[eureka]

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

eureka eureka:

Why is it a leap? The evidence is plain to see. The Middle Classes are shrinking in all countries that have suffered the scourge of "modern conservatism." The disparities in income and wealth are increasing in those countries.

In those countries that have not capitulated, Sweden, Denmark etc: where Unionism is strong (85% in Sweden), the Middle Classes are not disappearing, Poverty is lower; in the case of Denmark, about one fifth of the North American and British rate.

It is neocon and neolib philosophies that are causing the decline of both civil society and economic security.

What is conservative about that?

The guys that are attacking you here aren't even dyed in the wool conservatives. Don't know what's going on except some of your statements are a bit broad - but then who's aren't? And people love to go after newbies here.

Actually, no one has been attacking him in this thread, just posing questions which have gotten little more than broad sweeping claims.

Your cheer leading is misguided... again.

I thought I was quite specifice

[Gunnair]

eureka eureka:

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

The guys that are attacking you here aren't even dyed in the wool conservatives. Don't know what's going on except some of your statements are a bit broad - but then who's aren't? And people love to go after newbies here.

Actually, no one has been attacking him in this thread, just posing questions which have gotten little more than broad sweeping claims.

Your cheer leading is misguided... again.

I thought I was quite specifice

Well not really. They are generalizations - opinions with no fact. If presented as such, then fair enough. Don't expect all to bite at the whole class war struggle simply because you say so.