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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:48 pm
 


Fixed election dates certainly are a far cry from 'whats wrong with the US system'. If you don't think the canadian government leads up to the next election, get real. Just because elections are actually paid attention to in the states-in Canada, of course, we want them over and done as quick as possible. Most of the time people don't even want them! Only a miniscule number of canadians are even a member of a party. Fixed election dates mean absolutely nothing. As said, at least a referendum on PR would be a step. However, canadians are pretty used to their 'leaders', love them or hate them, so I doubt it would even pass (all the more reason to at least have one)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:36 pm
 


Social Credit in Alberta was in favour making it possible for a petition of electors to force a byelection if a particular MLA was deemed unsuitable. This system didn't last very long. [The general concept of "Social credit" itself was an idea that was actually presented to the French Assembly by Thomas Paine around 1791 and what in modern times is termed a negative income tax]. Basically politicians will promise all sorts of things when same appears useful to them...but that's usually it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:03 pm
 


<p>Jacob,</p> <blockquote>[“Fixed election dates”] is actually a crude and simplistic idea; I have no idea who developed it (for the US).</blockquote> <p>a good source for <i>what were they thinking?</i> is <i><a href="http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa00.htm">The Federalist Papers</a></i>. To get an idea of where on the evolutionary ladder the Westminster system was around 1788, look at numbers <a href="http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa52.htm">52</a> and <a href="http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa53.htm">53</a>, which were focused on why the House of Representatives was to have biennial elections. I’d guess that it wasn’t until the 1830s that the Westminster system acquired most of its current attributes — perhaps someone more familiar with it can provide further detail?</p><p>---<br>Shatter your ideals upon the rock of Truth.<br />
<br />
— The Divine Symphony, by Inayat Khan<br />



Shatter your ideals upon the rock of Truth.

— The Divine Symphony, by Inayat Khan


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:11 pm
 


and now the thinking is even more vehement. The 'corrupt' government line is ludicrous, a non confidence vote has little to do with corruption,<<

I don't recall anyone saying a non confidence vote was due to corruption. It is more likely that a minority government wouldn't survive if the proposal of non confidence was made. I only recall one government lossing in a non confidence vote. Wasn't it good old Joe?

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Expect little from life and get more from it.



Expect little from life and get more from it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:46 pm
 


Great exchange between Senator Pat Carney and Senator Larry Campbell on CBC/BC radio's Early Edition. Essentially Carney says that senate reform will take years of slow plodding, while Campbell says let's get this show on the road, and quit pretending to be doing something......

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RickW



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:06 pm
 


Oh yes, fixed terms is similar to how Americans do things electorally. And therefore, according to Vive logic, it's automatically a bad idea.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:14 pm
 


Why do we even need a senate? The last thing I want is an elected senate, thank you so fucking much for increasing my tax burden you dipshits. Elections cost money, duh! Get rid of the senate and bring in full proportional representation. Get municipalities to collect income tax and starve the federal government of funds. Reading a list of departments and agencies of the federal government is enough to give one a heart attack, and now you morons want to add even more? I am sick of government growing and now a lot of the idiots on this website want it to happen even more.

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My freedom is more important than your great idea.
– Anonymous



My freedom is more important than your great idea.
– Anonymous


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:32 pm
 


If we give more power to the municipalities, then we could dispense with Members of Parliament as well.......and while we are at it, we wouldn't need MLA's either. Municipalities could appoint representatives to the provincial government, which could then appoint representatives to the federal government. These in turn could choose a PM.........

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RickW



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:11 pm
 


I agree, get rid of MP's, MLA's can stay so long as they have low salaries, for example, the state legislature in New Hampshire has over 400 representatives who are paid the grand sum of $100 American per year, has not changed since the late 1800's. Those 400 plus reps translate into one rep per 4000 people, nice, democracy by the people for the people, interesting concept. Becoming a politician should not be a viable career choice, the more you pay them the more they try to justify their bloated salaries by establishing yet more programs to take even more tax dollars. If they make dick they stop being dicks because they don't have time to be dicks as they have a real job to go to for 40 or more hours per week.

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My freedom is more important than your great idea.
– Anonymous



My freedom is more important than your great idea.
– Anonymous


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:20 pm
 


And you put this mysterious connection together how? Because it entered your brain and you typed it out? You know what everyone one Vive is thinking at all times do you? Did you even read the half dozen responses as to why people don't want fixed term elections or are you just playing the debate shut-down game by dragging in some nonsense non-sequitur?

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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.



If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:33 am
 


A true Conservative would not want to "change for the sake of change". Democracy is bullshit enough. We don't need more of it.

Senators should stay until 75--this would given them experience with the process and wisdom. What's wrong with that? they don't owe the people who appointed them much after they're replaced.

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"True nations are united by blood and soil, language, literature, history, faith, tradition and memory". -

-Patrick J. Buchanan



"True nations are united by blood and soil, language, literature, history, faith, tradition and memory". -

-Patrick J. Buchanan


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 am
 


Hate to disagree, but, yes, a true conservative WOULD want change, not simply for the sake of change. While the above posters are changing the world, the reality is that it is difficult enough to get media coverage, public input on something as banal as Senate Reform.<br />
<br />
Elections are quite cheap to run, much of it by private donations. Elections would open up the Senate so that far more changes would be enacted. Currently, you can't even find out how much the Senate spends on salaries, committees, expenses, etc. So, much to the chagrin of our posting friend, I'd take the expense of elections over nominations anyday. As said, why not get rid of ALL government positions so that you pay NO money. In fact, get rid of police, military, all departments, education, health, etc.<br />
<br />
If that's the aim, good luck to you, but we live in a place called reality. Stockwell Day took a beating just for positing the use of citizens initiatives (and people really thought it was because of water skiing!) <br />
<br />
Personally I'd take the New Hampshire system over ours anyday, not the whole thing mind you. There are big problems in the states, I'd opt instead for their neighbour in Vermont. Its a complete fiction that New Hampshire is 'low government'. Vermonts government only costs $400 more per taxpayer and they get a lot more bang. New Hampshire, despite 'claiming' to be so libertarian actually gets far more of its state funding from the feds (probably because they have a knack for supporting Presidential winners). They get something like $500 more per person from federal and outside sources. <br />
<br />
Vermont also has a far lower debt, showing they're far more conservative in their borrowing. As far as democracy is concerned, I'd travel north to Maine, where the state also has implemented citizens initiatives. Neither New Hampshire nor Vermont has this at the state level, both have it at the local level. New Hampshire has less centralization and this is creating big problems, such as the current fight to figure out how to pay for education. The local governments aren't allowed to tax for it, but its not in the State's jurisdiction either. <br />
<br />
Vermont and Maine are a little more statist, which is a FAR easier sell in Canada. But personally, I've found just mentioning any aspects of the US government to a good proportion of Canadians gets an absolute refusal to even discuss it. Ironically most people's opinion stems from FEDERAL US policies, which aren't any more democratic than Canada's.<br />
<br />
In New Hampshire the problems of democracy have become abundantly clear with southeastern NH becoming a suburb of Boston. People have moved in, and voted to change the referenda legislation to where only a 50% plus one majority is needed, rather than the two thirds previously used. Due to voting patterns, more of these wealthy urbanites show up to vote, and so increasing legislation has favoured tax increases for services (mostly to wealthy suburbanites) and pushed out poorer Hampshirians. <br />
<br />
This is creating what is abundantly clear in most Canadian provinces, a rich-poor duality. The only way around that (in Canada) is to completely break down ownership of natural resources to the local area. That would be sort of like the 'canton' model in Switzerland.<br />
<br />
However, that's not practical, certainly not any time soon. Anybody that thinks big changes are going to come from government legislation needs to go back and read some newspapers from 1867 where the same complaints were made.<br />
<br />
For action, that will come, eventually, from US. Hopefully it won't be when things get so bad people are rioting in the streets. But if you are a teacher and looking closely at the next generation, you can see why Harper wants more people in the military, and more cops around. <br />
<br />
Again, just go to <a href="http://www.scottreid.com">www.scottreid.com</a>. That's an easy answer to democracy. You simply elect a guy who will have referenda on any issue (his are restricted, but that can change). It doesn't matter which party their from, tell your friends and start emailing your MP, or the guy who will be running against them. Conservatives are more likely to favour it, just because they have in the past, and because Scott Reid is an example. Yet anybody can have referenda, even liberals. In fact I suspect politicians would love canadians to help pry open the 'party politics' and 'heavy lobbying' that constricts them. <br />
<br />
It's perfect for backbenchers, who almost never get national media play.<br />
<br />
So for strategy, check out direct democracy, start it locally, or provincially-most federal initiatives start in the provinces. Write letters to the editor of the national papers, join fairvote and other groups. Can't find anyone locally, do like I'm doing and run yourself. <br />
<br />
The US provides one very good example-it takes WORK from PEOPLE to get democracy. Governments don't 'give it away', they are too beholden to corporate interests. Yet in the late 1800's states fought for these rights. They didn't wait for government to do it, they did it themselves. <br />
<br />


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:02 am
 


<p>Excerpt from Building Better Nations:</p> <i>The foundation of the TGS is the neighborhood. Citizens who live in close proximity to each other form an electoral neighborhood. These neighborhoods should have 25 to 250 people and constitute an environment in which citizens have the opportunity to know each other. Every year, the citizens in each neighborhood gather to elect their neighborhood representative. All citizens are eligible for election, and there are no nominations or campaigning. Before the voting, the citizens are reminded to vote for the individual in their neighborhood who best exemplifies good character and capacity for governance. Voting is done by secret ballot, whereby each citizen writes in the name of the person of their choice. Votes are counted, and the individual with the most votes becomes the neighborhood representative for the year.</i> <p>---<br>RickW



You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:08 am
 


I wonder how the ol' pork barrel is doing in NH.....?

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RickW



You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:31 am
 


Sure, I guess you could do that. Rather cynical though. You have to have your own party vote against a budget or other confidence motion...

Macarac... minority governments (as well as majorities) can still fall through a vote of non-confidence. At which time a vote is held. The fixed date vote only applies for governments which hold on to power for 4 years. So typically, only majority governments are affected. No minority government has held power for 4 years that I can find.


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