[PrimeDirective]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

These cultural enclaves (it's hard to call a sub division a ghetto) do nothing to intergrate newcomers.
They stick to stores and services provided by people from the 'old' country and ensure that people born here always look back to their parents third world homelands.
That's why we have Canadian and British born people from various immigrant communities fighting in Somalia, Afghanistan, etc, with the enemies of our states, against Westsern interests.
This stuff ensures that 'new' Canadians have no loyalty to Canada.

Has not everyone who has come here brought their homeland's traditions with them and have applied it to their new surroundings here? If that was not the case then perhaps I would now be an Iroquois or Mohawk or Blackfoot as these were some of the cultures here before my ancestors arrived from England. But I neither speak their languages nor do I share much with their cultures at all. So how can I ask other people arriving here to simply adopt my way of life when my family nor have I done the same with past cultures here?

However most people I have met throughout my life have had an understanding of the English language and have adopted many customs found here that they did not have in their old countries. It is economically and socially advantageous to try and adopt some of your new countries conventions therefore many people make an effort to do so. If some people do not want to then it really is no loss for me but more-so for them for alienating themselves from a great number of people and limiting their options and careers.

[Donny_Brasco]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

That's why we have Canadian and British born people from various immigrant communities fighting in Somalia, Afghanistan, etc, with the enemies of our states, against Westsern interests.
This stuff ensures that 'new' Canadians have no loyalty to Canada.

Ya, all new Canadians are disloyal.

[EyeBrock]

Not all of us Donny. But some are encouraged not to be Canadians.

[kenmore]

Perhaps Ghettos is not an appropriate descriptive. I think it would be better reference to say sub cultural areas. These are areas that become known as: China Town, Little Italy, The Greek Quarter, etc. Many immigrants tend to buy into neighbourhoods and develop cultural cells. This is happening in most large cities and urban areas.

[KorbenDeck]

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

Has not everyone who has come here brought their homeland's traditions with them and have applied it to their new surroundings here? If that was not the case then perhaps I would now be an Iroquois or Mohawk or Blackfoot as these were some of the cultures here before my ancestors arrived from England. But I neither speak their languages nor do I share much with their cultures at all. So how can I ask other people arriving here to simply adopt my way of life when my family nor have I done the same with past cultures here?

Because we have seen what happens to a people and a culture when the newcomers decide to bring their homelands traditions with them instead of respecting the existing culture. Remember as well that there were MANY native languages and very few ways to learn them, unlike today where there are many ways to learn English or French, plus anyone coming to Canada knows that English and French are the two languages.

Also make sure you take into account technology. Europeans also brought technology: gunpowder, factories, industrialization, and global trade. Technology alone greatly changed/destroyed native culture, instead of living off the land and only taking what you needed to survive they were introduced to things like firearms, which changed how wars were fought and how game was killed. Not only did it change how game was killed but what you had to do make the weapon that killed the game. The introduction of technology will always greatly change any culture, look at what cars, gunpowder, electricity, PC's and the internet did.

Europeans brought with them their wars and conflicts (which is still happening with immigrants today), plus they came in the age of settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a policy of conquering a land to send settlers in order to shape its demographic similarly as in the metropole (mother country). In today's standards colonialism is not tolerated, the last place to be colonized was Israel and look how well that is going.

Making "Little China" or "Little Mecca" can be described in a way as passive colonialism, trying to shape the demographic to be the same as the home country. If active colonialism is no longer tolerated why should passive colonialism be tolerated? It also promotes segregation, which often leads to conflict/violence.

One of the best ways to help prevent segregation is communication, in order to communicate there must be some language that can be used to communicate with. In the case of Canada that language is English or French, depending on where one lives in the country.

If one wants to see what segregation has done in Canada they need look no farther than the Indian Reserves, which are a continuing embarrassment to Canada. So why should Canada a nation that has seen what segregation can do not try to promote integration, so that mistakes of the past are not repeated?

[sandorski]

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

Has not everyone who has come here brought their homeland's traditions with them and have applied it to their new surroundings here? If that was not the case then perhaps I would now be an Iroquois or Mohawk or Blackfoot as these were some of the cultures here before my ancestors arrived from England. But I neither speak their languages nor do I share much with their cultures at all. So how can I ask other people arriving here to simply adopt my way of life when my family nor have I done the same with past cultures here?

Because we have seen what happens to a people and a culture when the newcomers decide to bring their homelands traditions with them instead of respecting the existing culture. Remember as well that there were MANY native languages and very few ways to learn them, unlike today where there are many ways to learn English or French, plus anyone coming to Canada knows that English and French are the two languages.

Also make sure you take into account technology. Europeans also brought technology: gunpowder, factories, industrialization, and global trade. Technology alone greatly changed/destroyed native culture, instead of living off the land and only taking what you needed to survive they were introduced to things like firearms, which changed how wars were fought and how game was killed. Not only did it change how game was killed but what you had to do make the weapon that killed the game. The introduction of technology will always greatly change any culture, look at what cars, gunpowder, electricity, PC's and the internet did.

Europeans brought with them their wars and conflicts (which is still happening with immigrants today), plus they came in the age of settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a policy of conquering a land to send settlers in order to shape its demographic similarly as in the metropole (mother country). In today's standards colonialism is not tolerated, the last place to be colonized was Israel and look how well that is going.

Making "Little China" or "Little Mecca" can be described in a way as passive colonialism, trying to shape the demographic to be the same as the home country. If active colonialism is no longer tolerated why should passive colonialism be tolerated? It also promotes segregation, which often leads to conflict/violence.

One of the best ways to help prevent segregation is communication, in order to communicate there must be some language that can be used to communicate with. In the case of Canada that language is English or French, depending on where one lives in the country.

If one wants to see what segregation has done in Canada they need look no farther than the Indian Reserves, which are a continuing embarrassment to Canada. So why should Canada a nation that has seen what segregation can do not try to promote integration, so that mistakes of the past are not repeated?

He's right though. Everyone brought or brings their Culture with them and they group together. All through History in North America, those who were here lamented about the new Immigrants and just this. This argument is as old as "Kids these days!".

We are just going over tired ground here and how exactly does one force an "Integration" in the way put forth without basically denying Immigrants the right of Free Movement?

This isn't Rocket Science people. People come here for many reasons(usually just trying to get out of a bad situation)and when they get here are often completely clueless on what to expect. So they live near Others they have something in common with. This helps them and their Children(especially important)to integrate without being overwhelmed. They Learn how things work from those who learnt it from previous Immigrants.

People need to face the facts and quit being douchebags concerning Immigration. First we need Immigrants.

Second not all of them will be able to Learn English/French before arriving and requiring them do so is often equivalent to demanding they pay $1million to enter. These people had Responsibilities and other Life concerns before arriving. Many of them were living in their Homelands quite contentedly when all Hell broke loose and they had to flee for their Lives.

Third, who cares whether the First Generation fully Integrates? Just look around you and you'll see 2nd/3rd Generations with the same inane attitudes/mannerisms as any other Canadian. Integration happens, just not instantaneously.

[Brenda]

Funny thing is, that people always seem to confuse immigrants with refugees. Immigrants have to take a language proviciency test. Refugees don't. Immigrants are supposed to speak one of the two languages, it gives you points you need. Immigrants also need to have an education and skills that are in demand in Canada.

Think about it...

[PrimeDirective]

$1:

Because we have seen what happens to a people and a culture when the newcomers decide to bring their homelands traditions with them instead of respecting the existing culture.

Oh and what happens? People start eating perogies and sauerkraut? They have Hanukkah? They sing Auld Lang Syne?

$1:

Remember as well that there were MANY native languages and very few ways to learn them, unlike today where there are many ways to learn English or French, plus anyone coming to Canada knows that English and French are the two languages.

So you are saying because of ignorance and complication it is okay to not learn another culture's language then therefore it is okay to simply shove them aside? Also there are many languages in Canada there always has been and always will be. Also what about the French why are they so special? Not very many people even speak that language outside of one province yet it somehow is official and people can get services funded by the population even where the language is non-existent.

$1:

Making "Little China" or "Little Mecca" can be described in a way as passive colonialism, trying to shape the demographic to be the same as the home country. If active colonialism is no longer tolerated why should passive colonialism be tolerated? It also promotes segregation, which often leads to conflict/violence.

I think people are free to live in whatever communities they wish to be part of. Freedom of association should not be restricted.

$1:

One of the best ways to help prevent segregation is communication, in order to communicate there must be some language that can be used to communicate with. In the case of Canada that language is English or French, depending on where one lives in the country.

What are you going to do about people who do not though? Deport them? Force them to learn a language? Perhaps burn their homes? To note only about 10% of the population speak another language besides English and French at home and 85% of the population have some knowledge of English.

$1:

If one wants to see what segregation has done in Canada they need look no farther than the Indian Reserves, which are a continuing embarrassment to Canada. So why should Canada a nation that has seen what segregation can do not try to promote integration, so that mistakes of the past are not repeated?

How about the government let people live instead of trying to regulate everything? That is the biggest mistake of all. The government shouldn't promote anything or be involved with culture.

[Lemmy]

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

They sing Auld Lang Syne?

Speaking for Scottish-Canadians, no, we don't do that. We get on our kilts, pound Laphroaig and the Tennants, do a bunch o' "Fuck Ewes" (Scottish martial arts, which amount mostly to a lot of swearing and head-butting). Then off to the pub to watch the Hearts-Hibs fixture, more Tennats, a couple o' steak-and-kidney pies, mushy peas and some salt-chips. Then it's back-a-hame for the sounds of the Runrig, Nazareth and the Proclaimers 'til we pass out pissin' ourselves. In the morning, after barfing, we eat fried mushrooms and tomatoes, blood sausage and eggs. Repeat.

[KorbenDeck]

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

Oh and what happens? People start eating perogies and sauerkraut? They have Hanukkah? They sing Auld Lang Syne?

No they forced the locals into reserves, took their land and imposed foreign laws on them.

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

Quote:
Remember as well that there were MANY native languages and very few ways to learn them, unlike today where there are many ways to learn English or French, plus anyone coming to Canada knows that English and French are the two languages.

So you are saying because of ignorance and complication it is okay to not learn another culture's language then therefore it is okay to simply shove them aside? Also there are many languages in Canada there always has been and always will be. Also what about the French why are they so special? Not very many people even speak that language outside of one province yet it somehow is official and people can get services funded by the population even where the language is non-existent.

No I am not saying it was okay and it seems you did not read the whole thing before you replied. If you know any history you will know that things like the internet, global media etc did not exist, all settlers knew was they would be given land and still live under their home countries rule. That is no longer the case where anyone coming here KNOWS what languages are the official languages. You would also know that North America was colonized/settled, the whole point of which to change the demographics of the country to mirror the home country, with no regard for the locals. Again if you knew history you would know why French is an official language. Seriously did you not attend any classes while in school?

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

I think people are free to live in whatever communities they wish to be part of. Freedom of association should not be restricted.

You think? I thought we were commies who told you where to live, yea people get to choose where they want to live and freedom of association. The issue with the ghettos isn't where they live its HOW, go to London, England then take a walk around their ghettos for an hour. You walk out of there without getting attacked or made to feel unsafe then you are one lucky person. They want nothing to do with anyone who isn't of their religion or race, and they make it clear you are not welcome in the area. That is what we want to avoid, simply sitting back and doing nothing to insure that does not happen will allow it to happen.

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

What are you going to do about people who do not though? Deport them? Force them to learn a language? Perhaps burn their homes? To note only about 10% of the population speak another language besides English and French at home and 85% of the population have some knowledge of English.

Deport them? Yes, we gave them a shot they blew it. Learning to speak an official language is not to much to ask, at lest it shows they have the intention of being part of Canada. Ever been to Richmond or Surrey? Find a lot of people who cannot speak English or French and have no intention of learning.

PrimeDirective PrimeDirective:

How about the government let people live instead of trying to regulate everything? That is the biggest mistake of all. The government shouldn't promote anything or be involved with culture.

Rape, underage marriages, forced marriages, honor killings, hate towards Jews or Gays, women as property, skinning of live animals. Those are very big parts of many cultures that comes to or are in Canada. You agree with what is going on in Bountiful BC, the marriage of 12 year old girls to 50 year old men? You agree with the rights of a husband to beat his wife if she denies him sex? You agree with women being forced into marriages against their will? You agree that men are better than women? If you stand by what you said then you agree to those things, just because they are not part of Canadian culture does not mean they are not part of a culture.

[KorbenDeck]

sandorski sandorski:

We are just going over tired ground here and how exactly does one force an "Integration" in the way put forth without basically denying Immigrants the right of Free Movement?

You mean how does one promote integration? Insure that all immigrates are able to speak an official language and maybe some education on how Canadian society works and why (In school they call it social studies). An understanding of Canadian society and being able to communicate effectively goes a long way.

[PrimeDirective]

KorbenDeck you just sound like a bigot plain and simple and are trying to somehow justify it. For someone who keeps talking about mistakes of the past it seems you have learnt nothing from it. Prejudice should have ended a long time ago and I'm surprised there are people who still are. Does it really bother you seeing a sign in Cantonese at a Chinese supermarket? Do you just find it so grotesque seeing people speak German to each other? But I suppose learning and speaking another language should be a crime in your world and people should even be deported for it! You know mad this sounds? How ridiculous? You do not even answer about people born here who choose not to speak English. They probably would be shot up against a wall. You are worse than Quebec enforcing French on everyone. If that is the only way to keep a language is by coercion and legislation then is should not be propped up at all. Oh and about the French they were conquered by the British and the only reason why they have remained a distinct culture is because they fought hard to do so. The only reason why it became an official language was to gain some votes.

I think society can naturally choose how to speak and it should not be criminal in choosing to do so. It should not be a crime choosing where you want to live and who you want as neighbours. You mention the “how” people live well if they respect individual liberty and property rights then I have no issue at all. I do not care if they read different literature, eat different food, or worship different Gods. I do not care where they come from.

Furthermore do not hijack the excuse of learning a language to cover your racist ideology and insecurities. The English language is going strong and an overwhelming majority of people speak it in this country. If you don't like foreigners then just say so and be done with it rather than tip toe around the idea. You mention Richmond and Surrey and label them as ghettos and would have them perhaps destroyed under the premise of not converting and that they are dangerous places. I do not remember feeling any danger at a midnight market in Richmond and the only danger I found in Surrey was mostly from English speaking young people due to mostly some its impoverished neighbourhoods. But I suppose being poor should be a crime too.

[EyeBrock]

Prime, read more history.
The defeated New French were allowed to keep their language and culture because the British didn't have the resources to either ship them all out (as in the Acadian expulsion), or fight them as well as the growing discontent in the 13 Colonies.
It wasn't because they fought hard to keep their culture 'distinct' in 1759. It was a matter of global politics and available military resources.

[ShepherdsDog]

Eyebrock,

Who the hell is this numbnuts? He seems to have jumped in with both feet in his mouth.

[EyeBrock]

Shep, There has been a spate of crazy new people coming to cka of late. They are making streaker look like a reasonable debator.