[Guy_Fawkes]

Gunnair Gunnair:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I'm not really sure why you're worried about the relative morality of a conventional weapon. Is your moral concern about how they maim or kill soldiers or the fact that far too many get left behind and wind up killing innocent civilians?

I have no moral concerns or worries over it. It's an observation of the simplistic arguments that an IED is some kind of ultimate evil while landmines are conveniantly ignored.

Nothing more than that.

I think I have been getting too wrapped around the axles about this, I think it was when you told me to look at wiki , I agree whole completely with what you have said there. While I consider IED to be worse, the potential for both mines and IEDS to injure non-combatants far exceeds their effectiveness as weapons.

[Gunnair]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Landmines are not banned in many countires... including the US.

True, but in their defense, the US did ban themselves from using persistent landmines as well as undetectable land mines, the Korean border notwithstanding.

To further answer andy's question about hellfires and IEDs, there is one especially significant difference. When a war is over, the hellfires no longer kill people. However, persistent landmines including IEDs continue to kill civilians long after a war is over.

Hellfires aside, there are many professionally made munitions that continue to kill once the war is over including cluster bombs, grenades, and unexploded ordinance for example.

[Gunnair]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Gunnair Gunnair:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I'm not really sure why you're worried about the relative morality of a conventional weapon. Is your moral concern about how they maim or kill soldiers or the fact that far too many get left behind and wind up killing innocent civilians?

I have no moral concerns or worries over it. It's an observation of the simplistic arguments that an IED is some kind of ultimate evil while landmines are conveniantly ignored.

Nothing more than that.

I think I have been getting too wrapped around the axles about this, I think it was when you told me to look at wiki , I agree whole completely with what you have said there. While I consider IED to be worse, the potential for both mines and IEDS to injure non-combatants far exceeds their effectiveness as weapons.

Yeah, suggesting you look at wiki was only meant to suggest you look at the actual landmine casualty stats - nothing else. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yeah, suggesting you look at wiki was only meant to suggest you look at the actual landmine casualty stats - nothing else. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No worries, I think I just took it too personally when really it wasnt at all.

[Gunnair]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yeah, suggesting you look at wiki was only meant to suggest you look at the actual landmine casualty stats - nothing else. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No worries, I think I just took it too personally when really it wasnt at all.

Nonononononono... nothing like that.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Gunnair Gunnair:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Landmines are not banned in many countires... including the US.

True, but in their defense, the US did ban themselves from using persistent landmines as well as undetectable land mines, the Korean border notwithstanding.

To further answer andy's question about hellfires and IEDs, there is one especially significant difference. When a war is over, the hellfires no longer kill people. However, persistent landmines including IEDs continue to kill civilians long after a war is over.

Hellfires aside, there are many professionally made munitions that continue to kill once the war is over including cluster bombs, grenades, and unexploded ordinance for example.

Cluster bombs are the worst offenders for UXO, because of the impact some can become so sensitive that even a slight drop in temperature can set them off.

[PENATRATOR]

"you may change your mind when you take more advanced leadership training and education , or you may not"


That is quite the assumption, as you have no real idea of where I am in my "career progresion" and I was not looking to offend, but the fact you posted your resume, which I am am still going to side with a Sapper after reading, kinda tells me you were, so sorry about that (and you had referenced wiki, so it was not meant as a shot).
If this were a thread about naval combat/weapons or even tactics, I would tell Guy he was full of shit anyway!

[peck420]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Fail.

How are they similar to IEDs today, do you have any idea how IEDs are made today?

Lmao.

If it is a fail, define how making IED's is a different concept from 13th century China to today.

[Guy_Fawkes]

peck420 peck420:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Fail.

How are they similar to IEDs today, do you have any idea how IEDs are made today?

Lmao.

If it is a fail, define how making IED's is a different concept from 13th century China to today.

Well first, I have never seen a 13th century Chinese landmine, do if you could produce that I could comment on it.

As for rockets, while the prototypes may have been jury rigged, the rest were mass produced. Components were created as per a engineering blueprints, then assembled the exact same way each time, and employed the same way each time. They did not scour trash piles or rip apart functioning devices for the parts they needed for their rockets. Why? Because the Chinese had the resources to manufacture their parts so that they could assure a quality in what they produced.

That is why Chinese 13th century rockets were not Improvised Explosive devices.

Again, you have no idea how IEDs are constructed, so you dont have a valid opinion on what does or does not make an IED.

[peck420]

I never said that Chinese rockets were IED's.

I said that they were used to make IED's.

Similar to how artillery shells have been used today to make IED's.

Apparently (as there is no hard evidence, purely anecdotal stories) they would take the powder from the rockets and make explosives to line gates and passes.

First recorded use of land mines (distinguished only by the fact they are manufactured as a landmine from the get go) is approx 100 years later.

Personally, I think they developed and manufactured the land mines based on the success of the IED's during the previous century.

[Guy_Fawkes]

peck420 peck420:

I never said that Chinese rockets were IED's.

I said that they were used to make IED's.

Similar to how artillery shells have been used today to make IED's.

Apparently (as there is no hard evidence, purely anecdotal stories) they would take the powder from the rockets and make explosives to line gates and passes.

First recorded use of land mines (distinguished only by the fact they are manufactured as a landmine from the get go) is approx 100 years later.

Personally, I think they developed and manufactured the land mines based on the success of the IED's during the previous century.

I really want to hear how you think IEDs are constructed, Im sure you have no clue and are just pulling all of this out of your ass (or are just parroting incorrect information someone has spoon fed you).

Again if you could show me anything which describes how these landmines were created.

[peck420]

I have no idea how a modern IED is made, and truth be told, I hope to never learn.

That, however, doesn't change the fact that most historians classify all pre-Ming mines as IEDs.

You will have to excuse me if I take their word on what constitutes and IED over yours.

[Guy_Fawkes]

peck420 peck420:

I have no idea how a modern IED is made, and truth be told, I hope to never learn.

That, however, doesn't change the fact that most historians classify all pre-Ming mines as IEDs.

You will have to excuse me if I take their word on what constitutes and IED over yours.

IED has become a buzz word, so much so that some dont really know what it stands for or what makes an IED.

I wonder what did these historians call them pre 1970? You can chose to be wrong that is your prerogative, I just ask that you find some better informed historians. By your definition the mining charges used in WWI were IEDs as well.

[ShepherdsDog]

The I is the important part in the term. Improvised. You take the materials you can get your hands on to make something go boom...pipe bombs, fertilizer bombs, gas bombs..... anything that's available and can do the job.

[Guy_Fawkes]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The I is the important part in the term. Improvised. You take the materials you can get your hands on to make something go boom...pipe bombs, fertilizer bombs, gas bombs..... anything that's available and can do the job.

Exactly, you should listen to Shep, peck, he has an idea about what he is talking about.