[jeff744]

Seems appropriate

[HyperionTheEvil]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

I would hold that the sacrifice of Christ was necessary, as there was no means for man to justify himself in his sinful state. An imperfect being cannot make itself perfect, so the only way for the relationship between God and man to be reconciled was for God to impute His own righteousness into/onto man. Christ's sacrifice was God paying the penalty for the sins of man and fixing the relationship. NOW, I cannot speak with certainty as to how man is involved in accepting this grace and mercy, BUT it seems to me that to those whom much is given, much is expected, so those who perhaps have little or no chance to know the particulars of this situation would not be held accountable in the same manner.

Does that help at all? Do I need to define terms or anything?

So let me try to figure this out

According to myth god created man and created him with free will. Yet because man had free will he once again according to myth turned away from god. apparently this free will idea god had had unforeseen circumstance. In that because of the error of the choice of man god was backed into a corner, and forced into picking a Palestinian virgin to bear a child - conceived by god - in order to "pay for" the 'sins' of man that god allowed man to commit because of that choice of free will that god hypothetically imparted to man at his creation.

All of this raises a question that religious believers tend to shy away from because it undermines the idea of religion. If god did indeed create man in his present form, with the 'gift' of free will. Then one of two things occurred. Either god knew all along that is creation was flawed from the beginning and that at a specific time he would have to intervene to "save" mankind.

Thereby nullifying the free will aspect of the human condition, which is at odds with religion because it is repeatedly stated that mankind must make a choice to become a religious believer in god. And yet how can one really make a free choice when once more according to myth god in fact does know what has happened in history and also knows what will happen in the future. Our destinies are already sealed, we may not know what that is because this god person already knows our individual outcomes because he is omnipotent


Or

God didn't know what would happen to man because of one of two things. He is either not omnipotent or omniscient or he voluntarily relinquished that part of his Omnipotent power to allow man to progress individually. Either way it means that god is neither omnipotent nor omniscient which allows room for error. Which further calls into question the power of this god person and wisdom of following any religion since by being neither completely omnipotent no omniscient it follows that this god person is in fact capable of error and that the laws he according ti biblical myth laid down for mankind could in fact be part of the flaws in this god persons makeup.

[Dayseed]

Faith is bad because it's the collision between arrogance and ignorance.

It's arrogant because it says that you have found the one true way. Everybody else is wrong, you're right.

It's ignorant because it tells the faithful to stop looking elsewhere. Inquiry stops, decisions are made and set in stone. Afterall, why look elsewhere when you're damn sure you're right?

Faith is nothing more than a child plugging its ears with its fingers and crying until the bad reason goes away.

[angler57]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Faith is bad because it's the collision between arrogance and ignorance.

It's arrogant because it says that you have found the one true way. Everybody else is wrong, you're right.

It's ignorant because it tells the faithful to stop looking elsewhere. Inquiry stops, decisions are made and set in stone. Afterall, why look elsewhere when you're damn sure you're right?

Faith is nothing more than a child plugging its ears with its fingers and crying until the bad reason goes away.

Faith is what each individual chooses to make of it. Seems that anything that gives another comfort in their own heart and mind are no body elses business.
If others choose to not believe that is also their business.
Faith in one form or another has always been with us. Chances are it will be around for a long time to come.

[Elvis]

$1:

Faith is what each individual chooses to make of it. Seems that anything that gives another comfort in their own heart and mind are no body else business.
If others choose to not believe that is also their business.
Faith in one form or another has always been with us. Chances are it will be around for a long time to come.

This is a great definition of Faith. I totally agree with it. Faith is a conscious choice to believe in something. Therefore if you want to believe in the giant Spaghetti monster your faith would be as justifiable as anyone else faith

And no I do not respect Faith or Religion for that reason. People of faith choose to believe in fiction in order to avoid responsibility for there life, because it feel good. We human have an incredible ability to lie to our self. So that life can be more bearable It's like when you buy a lottery ticket when you have money trouble. Just to think that there is one in a billion chance that you could win give hope and dream that all your money worry could go away. But the good feeling it only last until the day of the draw. Faith does the same thing, it give the believer false hope.

[Brenda]

angler57 angler57:

Dayseed Dayseed:

Faith is bad because it's the collision between arrogance and ignorance.

It's arrogant because it says that you have found the one true way. Everybody else is wrong, you're right.

It's ignorant because it tells the faithful to stop looking elsewhere. Inquiry stops, decisions are made and set in stone. Afterall, why look elsewhere when you're damn sure you're right?

Faith is nothing more than a child plugging its ears with its fingers and crying until the bad reason goes away.

Faith is what each individual chooses to make of it. Seems that anything that gives another comfort in their own heart and mind are no body elses business.
If others choose to not believe that is also their business.
Faith in one form or another has always been with us. Chances are it will be around for a long time to come.

But that has been proven to be bs...

[Brenda]

venus89 venus89:

jesus is great to know about jesus u can watch many site........

internet site, you mean? Meaning "everything you read on the internet is true"?
If you want to know about Jesus, you read the Bible and make up your own mind.

[angler57]

Brenda Brenda:

angler57 angler57:

Dayseed Dayseed:

Faith is bad because it's the collision between arrogance and ignorance.

It's arrogant because it says that you have found the one true way. Everybody else is wrong, you're right.

It's ignorant because it tells the faithful to stop looking elsewhere. Inquiry stops, decisions are made and set in stone. Afterall, why look elsewhere when you're damn sure you're right?

Faith is nothing more than a child plugging its ears with its fingers and crying until the bad reason goes away.

Faith is what each individual chooses to make of it. Seems that anything that gives another comfort in their own heart and mind are no body elses business.
If others choose to not believe that is also their business.
Faith in one form or another has always been with us. Chances are it will be around for a long time to come.

But that has been proven to be bs...

Am certainly confused as to what this flippant retart is trying to say?
Please explain? What is it's meaning or purpose?
May agree with or reject it if it were more clear?

Off Topic; Will be in Sandusky, Ohio doing a bit of fishing after the 20th of June. Will board the Jiimaan (little canoe)
some time that week for Pelee Island and then Leamington, Ontario then north up the Bruce.
Mayhaps Tobermory or further north. Always enjoy the Chi-Cheemaun and
Manitoulin Island. Ferry has a wonderful buffet. See Ya'lll soon.

[Brenda]

Retard? Are you calling me a retard?

[angler57]

jeff744; Find your probing thought process and open minded insights if nothing else, entertaining. Nothing more sadly but, ner the less
entertaining.

[angler57]

Brenda Brenda:

Retard? Are you calling me a retard?

RETART: Sorry, poorly selected word. Should have used, your
reply or statement, they would have been better used.
No insult intended.
Only an honest question.
What is the purpose or meaning of your reply?
It confuses me.

[Pseudonym]

andyt andyt:

Your God sounds pretty helpless - he made his creation imperfect (why?) and now has to pay a penalty - to whom, himself? Who suffers when Jesus dies? God? So he causes himself to suffer? Why? More likely Jesus, since he was fully human. Sounds pretty cruel for God to create his son just to have him suffer. And if Jesus is fully human, but also God, ie perfect, why aren't the rest of us?

Let's focus on the original topic, which is the need for Jesus. I want to be sure that we understand one another in all respects on that point before we diverge into other discussions.

God made man in a morally perfect state. God also gave man free will, which then requires the ability to choose between good and evil, which requires a distinction between the two, which requires a law, and so on. As is the nature of free will, man has chosen to sin/break the law, destroying that moral perfection. God sacrifices himself, as a morally perfect being, to pay the penalty demanded by the law (death) and to impute His perfection onto man.

[Brenda]

angler57 angler57:

Brenda Brenda:

Retard? Are you calling me a retard?

RETART: Sorry, poorly selected word. Should have used, your
reply or statement, they would have been better used.
No insult intended.
Only an honest question.
What is the purpose or meaning of your reply?
It confuses me.

You claim that everyone who doesn't believe in any God has the right to, and anyone who wants to believe in a different God than yours has that right. That has proven to be bogus, since many religions don't practice what they preach, and many religious people don't accept people who believe in a different God than theirs.
Religion is selfish. "Only my God speaks the truth, the rest is untrue." Which makes my life less worthy, according to you, because I do not have God in my life.

Christianity is not the only religion in the world, Christ not the only one "who died for our sins", (I still don't know what that means tho) but according to Christianity, he is the only truth. How can you explain that, when you claim everyone has the right to believe what they want?

The fact this topic was started says enough...

[Pseudonym]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

All of this raises a question that religious believers tend to shy away from because it undermines the idea of religion. If god did indeed create man in his present form, with the 'gift' of free will. Then one of two things occurred. Either god knew all along that is creation was flawed from the beginning and that at a specific time he would have to intervene to "save" mankind.

Thereby nullifying the free will aspect of the human condition, which is at odds with religion because it is repeatedly stated that mankind must make a choice to become a religious believer in god. And yet how can one really make a free choice when once more according to myth god in fact does know what has happened in history and also knows what will happen in the future. Our destinies are already sealed, we may not know what that is because this god person already knows our individual outcomes because he is omnipotent

So you can't reconcile the existence of free will with the existence of God, since an all-powerful God must know everything, and if God knows everything, then where is there room for free will? Let me know if I missed anything there.

It is a very good question, although I would hesitate to say that "religious believers tend to shy away from" it. Some might, but I don't think that characterization holds true in the general case.

Anyway, if that is the main conflict you see, then consider that if God is above and outside of time, then His knowledge of future events doesn't interfere with their progression. I doubt you will be satisfied, but you are trying to impute paradox onto a being that made time itself.

[andyt]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

Let's focus on the original topic, which is the need for Jesus. I want to be sure that we understand one another in all respects on that point before we diverge into other discussions.

God made man in a morally perfect state. God also gave man free will, which then requires the ability to choose between good and evil, which requires a distinction between the two, which requires a law, and so on. As is the nature of free will, man has chosen to sin/break the law, destroying that moral perfection. God sacrifices himself, as a morally perfect being, to pay the penalty demanded by the law (death) and to impute His perfection onto man.

I think my latter questions were all about the need for Jesus.

Yep God did all this. As someone pointed out, he either knew it would go wrong and enjoys watching people suffer, or he didn't and he's not the ultimate God. (The Gnostic position). And God sacrifices his son to who? To God, ie himself, no? How else would Jesus's death assuage the sins of humans? The idea of a sacrifice is to appease a deity - so God is appeasing himself, or a higher deity than himself. Or he's got DID.

The only way any of this works in my mind is as a metaphor. If there really is a guy in the sky doing all this, he's got some big problems and needs to seek professional help.