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CKA Super Elite
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:33 am
 


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I've never seen a Canadian leftist yet that has any problem at all with importing oil from the Saudis, Iran, Venezuela, or even the US.

Then get off the fucking Internet and go outside. You might even learn that everyone with the slightest environmental concern isn't "left" because you're hanging about with people who have none whatsoever. Daddy told them in 1970 that it was either jobs or the environment just like Grampa told them "he escaped communist Hungary" so never even think to vote NDP.
And try to realize that Singh, Scheer, Trudeau matter for shit about the pipelines. Nobody "let" any group or person protest them, it's their right to. No 'other' leader is going to change that.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:50 pm
 


herbie wrote:
Quote:
I've never seen a Canadian leftist yet that has any problem at all with importing oil from the Saudis, Iran, Venezuela, or even the US.

Then get off the fucking Internet and go outside. You might even learn that everyone with the slightest environmental concern isn't "left" because you're hanging about with people who have none whatsoever. Daddy told them in 1970 that it was either jobs or the environment just like Grampa told them "he escaped communist Hungary" so never even think to vote NDP.
And try to realize that Singh, Scheer, Trudeau matter for shit about the pipelines. Nobody "let" any group or person protest them, it's their right to. No 'other' leader is going to change that.

:arrow: R=UP R=UP R=UP


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:31 pm
 


herbie wrote:
You might even learn that everyone with the slightest environmental concern isn't "left" because you're hanging about with people who have none whatsoever.


Don't be a smartass. I worked for twenty-five years in a business that is governed by some of the toughest manufacturing & construction codes on the planet, for some of the toughest O&G customers on the planet as well. And they want them to be tough not just because environmental damage from faulty product is a sin or because it's bad PR, but because it costs them too much money in legal headaches when things go wrong. You know who's happiest when an explosion happens or a spill occurs? The damn lawyers, that's who, because it's ka-ching! time at the money trough for them. To get any tougher on building things aside from O&G you have to go to the Canadian nuclear power building codes for the next level of nightmare.

Compare that to buying a car from Saint Ontario. If the auto industry was governed by the same codes as O&G there'd never be a recall for ANYTHING on a vehicle because the code would simply not allow the possibility for something to go wrong. Want to find real pragmatic environmentalists? Go work in O&G for a while because out there anyone who fucks up or clowns around and causes damage doesn't work in the field for very long. That "cowboy" crap? It might have been true in the old days of the 1970's rush or still in effect in the US where they clearly don't give a damn about anything. In Canada, or Alberta? Fuck that noise. Neil Young and the hardcore eco-freaks can go fuck themselves because their bullshit about "Mordor" is exactly that, nothing but pure propaganda crap.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:16 pm
 


I know. I worked in a refinery and know lots who worked in oil and gas fields, the old lady's an ex camp cook.
Just thinking of the morons acting as if who was PM everything would be all peachy. No one's gonna shut up Neil Young or David Suzuki or the natives, yet we've heard it all from the babbling ignoroids telling you how Scheer (or Trump for that matter) would, will and should.
You, you're only guilty of carrying on the whine that what's happening is because everyone hate Alberta.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:46 pm
 


Let's assume that Alberta does secede. Exactly how will this make the province better off? Certainly it will be able to keep all of its declining oil revenue, but since oil prices do not appear likely to rise much in the future that would be a bit of a hollow victory. Not only that, but it would still have to find a way to get its oil to market. It is already obvious that oil exports can be held up by strict environmental laws and that is hardly likely to improve when negotiating with provinces that would now be part of another country.

In addition, the political instability generated by a separatist movement would frighten away foreign investors from Alberta in the same way that investors were frightened away from Quebec. Right now Calgary is the corporate HQ capital of Western Canada, in the same way that Montreal was the corporate HQ of the East prior to the rise of separatism. It is also possible that many Albertans might decide to leave the province in order to hold on to their Canadian citizenship.

I still think the idea of separatism is a pipe dream (no pun intended) generated by frustration over the inability to get pipelines built through B.C.; and I can't see it going anywhere, but if it did, don't expect separation to solve any problems.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:54 pm
 


Thousands of people with pitchforks will swarm the province and chop them to pieces.
I'm not getting no fuking passport! I ain't paying two income taxes!
Newfoundland will attack BANZAII!!! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 pm
 


The Quebec separatists would have set up a harder socialist state if they'd gotten independence, one bordering on Marxism - Quebec separatism was hard-left in nature and remains so today. Hence the fleeing of investment and head offices to what was then a much more conservative Ontario. The money fled Quebec because the investors weren't going to leave it stranded there to be confiscated by a socialist Quebec government that would have been far too similar to Cuba or today's Venezuela.

If separatism happened in Alberta the exact opposite would happen. Abandonment of effectively all of the industry-stalling and job-killing regulation forced on us by Ottawa would attract investment like bears to honey. The argument remains to that Alberta would be able to negotiate a much better deal by ourselves, with no stupid conditions, with the US to get more pipelines into the US to access the existing and always-growing American pipeline system. That alone would ensure that more product got to market and it would put a permanent end to having the O&G market deliberately sabotaged by either neighbouring provinces or by the federal government.

Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:16 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
The Quebec separatists would have set up a harder socialist state if they'd gotten independence, one bordering on Marxism - Quebec separatism was hard-left in nature and remains so today. Hence the fleeing of investment and head offices to what was then a much more conservative Ontario. The money fled Quebec because the investors weren't going to leave it stranded there to be confiscated by a socialist Quebec government that would have been far too similar to Cuba or today's Venezuela.

If separatism happened in Alberta the exact opposite would happen. Abandonment of effectively all of the industry-stalling and job-killing regulation forced on us by Ottawa would attract investment like bears to honey. The argument remains to that Alberta would be able to negotiate a much better deal by ourselves, with no stupid conditions, with the US to get more pipelines into the US to access the existing and always-growing American pipeline system. That alone would ensure that more product got to market and it would put a permanent end to having the O&G market deliberately sabotaged by either neighbouring provinces or by the federal government.

Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.


Nail hit with 50lb hammer. Nice one. [B-o]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:24 pm
 


There's also nothing that Canada provides materially to Alberta that just as easily, or even easier, can be gotten from the US. And, with a trade deal of some sort in place between an independent Alberta and the Americans, it could probably be accessed much cheaper from the US than it is to get from other Canadian provinces. Eliminate a tariff-mongering dick-head like Trump from the equation, because the US will have a sane president again one day, and such a deal would probably happen ASAP just because there's too much money for American companies to make here in sales. And there's too many resources that the US would want from Alberta that would no longer be tangled up in Canadian federal regulations or taxes. It would be a win-win scenario from the start to the finish of the negotiations for both the US and Alberta.

And, as the rest of Canada likes to remind us, Alberta and the US share a similar mentality on a lot of issues. Therefore any negotiations between the two countries wouldn't be hampered by any of that Canadian cultural "uniqueness" nonsense that made such a fuss out of the old FTA deal in the Mulroney days.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am
 


So you admit there's no historical, cultural, or linguistic justification for separation? That you's like to form a country based solely on greed (or as you'd doublespeak it, economic benefit)?
What would be the new motto? What's 'for the extra nickel' in Latin?
What would it be like if you again took 30 years too many to boot out a party that pissed away all the gains you might get?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:10 am
 


Tired of losing our homes, epidemic of bankruptcies, closures of thousands of businesses, all of it as much due to federal government malice/indifference as it is to any commodity pricing = "greed". Yes, very cute. Next, please. :roll:

Aside from dope runs down the TransCanada highway what is it exactly that BC provides for this country anyway? A fantasyland oceanside setting for old hippies to live in smug certitude smelling their own gorgeous farts? :?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:53 pm
 


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what is it exactly that BC provides for this country anyway?

Oil, gas, coal. wheat, lumber, fish, gold, beef, fruit, copper.... shall I go on? And several of those markets turn to shit all at once every now and then. Some of which are fucked up by the same pipeline shit as you.
But we deal with it, instead of bitching that it's Trudeau's fault or someone else's and we want it fixed right fucking now or repeating empty threat about separation. Mainly because we might have a grasp as to why the cousin's in Vancouver don't want the oil in my backyard on their beaches just because and not for anything in return. And secondly because we already lost lots of our houses because they're exporting resources out in as raw a form of possible and even if there is a shitload of gas right here, we don't want to earn as little as humanly possible for it.
Think about this: Christy Clark set some conditions, and there was a window where everything was approved. What if Alberta had offered a transit fee? Say even they were screaming in Edmonton over having to pay an absurd $5 a bbl instead of $1?
You'd have bought off half the opposition in the Lower Mainland. You'd already have access to a market that would pay an additional $20-$25 bbl. "Evil" Trudeau wouldn't have spent $4.5 billion trying to fix things.
But I;m sure even if all that happened, Alta Conservatives would be all over the news screaming about "losing" $5 million a day instead of $80, blaming Trudeau, Hollywood celebrities, eco-nazis and threatening to separate.
And the minute a tanker leaked point out to the world that the minute it's pumped it's not Alberta's oil anymore so they shouldn't have to kick in for the cleanup.

FFS I actually agree with you on the oil/pipeline subject! How fucking long does this 'consultation; shit have to go on? It should be done already and any notion that consultation means 100% agreement by 100% of natives beaten from people's thick skulls. The marine report should also have been finished by now, any negative issues found and fixed already so the goddam thing can get done.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:22 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
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...and better recognized Indigenous leadership instead of just relying on the band councils (which lack legitimacy in the minds of a lot of Natives, but that's a subject for another day)...


How does one negotiate with a band, or recognize their leadership, when apparently every single member of the group is some kind of "hereditary chief" and any single one of them can say "no" and apparently has the authority bring a massive infrastructure project to a permanent shuddering halt?


Unfortunately that's what's happening but it's not supposed to. The natives are to be "consulted with" not "given ultimate authority to" end infrastructure projects at their pleasure.


Quote:
Delgamuukw v. British Columbia (1997) — Although the Supreme Court of Canada never ruled on the question at the heart of this case, the statements it made about aboriginal land title were precedent setting for future land rights cases and the land claims process. The court confirmed that aboriginal title entails rights to the land itself, not just the right to extract resources from it. The court also ruled that the government has a duty to consult with First Nations on issues concerning Crown land and in some instances may have to compensate them for infringing on their rights to that land.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/6-landma ... -1.1316961

So, don't just blame the natives, blame the spineless politicians sitting in Ottawa who have and continue to give these special Canadians complete control over the well being of our country because they're afraid of being seen as racist or, offending idiots in organizations like the UN.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:37 pm
 


You're thinking of the bullshit in Hazelton where the elected Council is for the gas project but a couple hereditary Chiefs aren't? Where they didn't "let" anything, they got hauled off in cuffs?
Or you want to replace the "spineless" politicians who obey the laws and rights and compensate natives for land and resource extraction? Good luck on that one. Never gonna happen.
Tell you I almost cracked a buddy across the head when he came back from the oilfield last week, telling us how he "found out" from a co-worker that "Indians can choose if they're American or Canadian citizens" and most of those guys in Hazelton were from the USA rabble rousing. Fucking twit's lived and worked 25 years here among natives, but some doughead welder in Alberta spouts shit....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:24 pm
 


herbie wrote:
You're thinking of the bullshit in Hazelton where the elected Council is for the gas project but a couple hereditary Chiefs aren't? Where they didn't "let" anything, they got hauled off in cuffs?
Or you want to replace the "spineless" politicians who obey the laws and rights and compensate natives for land and resource extraction? Good luck on that one. Never gonna happen.
Tell you I almost cracked a buddy across the head when he came back from the oilfield last week, telling us how he "found out" from a co-worker that "Indians can choose if they're American or Canadian citizens" and most of those guys in Hazelton were from the USA rabble rousing. Fucking twit's lived and worked 25 years here among natives, but some doughead welder in Alberta spouts shit....

Its not shit, its called the Jay Treaty. Canadian First Nation members with at least 50% native blood can cross the U.S. Canadian border at will. They need no visa or work permit to live and work in the U.S. They cannot be deported. If they so choose they can become a U.S. citizen (why would they?). They are entitled to welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, rent control, medicaid/medicare, the whole shabang, you name it. Most of them can go to college for free as well.

https://www.washingtonlawhelp.org/resou ... jay-treaty

Still feel like smacking him in the head?


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