[Gunnair]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You haven't demonstrated that you've come into this discussion with anything, except an attempt to excuse.the inexcusable. Do you not understand that those who havet investigated this death disagree with you, or do you just think you know better than them?

Maybe you just dont understand that when a coroner's jury rules the death a HOMICIDE, proclaim that it be studied by future generations as a CASE of systemic ERRORS, and a catalyst for massive CHANGE it doesnt mean "everythings fine, everyone did all they could".

Think you're whistling down a well here.

[andyt]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You haven't demonstrated that you've come into this discussion with anything, except an attempt to excuse.the inexcusable. Do you not understand that those who havet investigated this death disagree with you, or do you just think you know better than them?

Maybe you just dont understand that when a coroner's jury rules the death a HOMICIDE, proclaim that it be studied by future generations as a CASE of systemic ERRORS, and a catalyst for massive CHANGE it doesnt mean "everythings fine, everyone did all they could".

Agree with everything you said, except that homicide is a neutral term that does not imply blame (nor does it imply no blame).

I don't know what OTI is on about - of course the system failed her. Aside from the lack of proper handling of her (treatment may not have been much help with BPD) the order to not intervene unless she stops breathing is just insane. The people who gave that order should be charged or at least fired.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You haven't demonstrated that you've come into this discussion with anything, except an attempt to excuse.the inexcusable. Do you not understand that those who havet investigated this death disagree with you, or do you just think you know better than them?

Maybe you just dont understand that when a coroner's jury rules the death a HOMICIDE, proclaim that it be studied by future generations as a CASE of systemic ERRORS, and a catalyst for massive CHANGE it doesnt mean "everythings fine, everyone did all they could".

Beaver, let's back up for a second.

I came into this post because you made a couple comments:

$1:

- that a child could be jailed for throwing crabapples at a mailman

She wasn't jailed for throwing crabapples. She was already jailed and broke her probation by throwing apples at a mailman.

$1:

- that said jail sentance would be extended beyond all proportionality to the offence based on 'bad behaviour'

Her stay was extended for a hundreds of reasons....hundreds of incidents while in custody.

$1:

- that Corrections Canada recognized they were dealing with a severe mental health issue, yet refused to deal with her on any basis other than a discipline issue

Categorically false. Did they treat her for mental illness? Yes. Did they do a perfect job....obviously not. However, you can't just say they did nothing as that's not the truth.

I'm not defending the actions of those that sat and watched her die nor does the report disagree with me whatsoever.

I simply disagree with your false assertions about why she was arrested and that nobody bothered to treat her mental issues. You were right....this was a mental issue from the start. A very unique case with a tragic end that we can all learn from.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

I don't know what OTI is on about - of course the system failed her. Aside from the lack of proper handling of her (treatment may not have been much help with BPD) the order to not intervene unless she stops breathing is just insane. The people who gave that order should be charged or at least fired.

Sure, the system failed her and likely fails people daily. Hopefully we can improve.

My problem is with Beaver throwing everyone under the bus at Corrections Canada and law enforcement for jailing a kid for throwing apples and not addressing her mental issues.

It's easy to sit back and point fingers and make false assumptions. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[andyt]

I don't think any of her "crimes" amounted to much more than of the throwing apples variety. Compared to what some other kids her age get up to, she was a lamb. It shows the failings of a system that only knows to add more and more punishment for somebody that's not following the straight and narrow, but isn't really a criminal. In fact the system creates criminals when it brutalizes people while in so that they become meaner and worse criminals. There are people who need to spend time away from the general society, but brutalizing them, if we ever let them out again, and we mostly do, just creates bigger monsters.

And what was up with all the moves. She did spend time in mental institutions - why wasn't she kept there? Corrections Canada definitely failed this kid.

Anyway, I had the impression you were in support of how she was treated. Glad to hear you're not.

[Benn]

stratos stratos:

Part of the job is protecting the inmates from harm that includes from harming themselfs.

The prison management needs to face charges.

Great spot to be put in. Disobey and maybe get fired or watch someone kill themselves. Management screwed up and it's time for them to pay.

Up here jails and prisons don't have padded cells. Instead of tissue gowns the head cases get thick (supposedly) untearable cloth gowns. If they are bat shi@ crazy they will go to a secure psych ward. Not sure how the federal guys do it but for us unless the detention warrant says they are sentenced to a mental hospital we can't just drop them there and leave. We have to take them there and stay there with them. They are much easier to deal with there. We jump on them and the nurse shoots them up with the special sauce and they are quiet and drooling for the rest of the day, most of the time. This of course costs $$$ to have staff out of the jail to watch one person. Was Smith not sent to a psych facility because someone was penny pinching? Not sure, just a theory.

Many senior management in jails have had little time on the floor. They seem to forget certain things such as attention getting self harm can go wrong and turn to death. It happens all the time in and out of jail. Anyone who does not know this should not be running a jail.

As per punishment in the government the warden will likely get promoted and sent to create havoc in another government department.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

I don't think any of her "crimes" amounted to much more than of the throwing apples variety.

I think you'd be surprised of her activities prior to being jailed. This is a girl that would randomly attack people on the street for fun.

[Benn]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

I don't think any of her "crimes" amounted to much more than of the throwing apples variety.

I think you'd be surprised of her activities prior to being jailed. This is a girl that would randomly attack people on the street for fun.

Yeah I'd wager my first born that throwing apples was not her only crime to get her tossed into the Pen. It's just the crime the media is using to make things look worse.

[stratos]

Thanks for the information Benn

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

I don't think any of her "crimes" amounted to much more than of the throwing apples variety.

I think you'd be surprised of her activities prior to being jailed. This is a girl that would randomly attack people on the street for fun.

1)She wasn't beating people's heads in with a baseball bat, her earlier criminal charges didn't even warrant a prison sentence they were so minor in nature.

2) The offence that landed her in jail was in fact throwing the apples - in the context of earlier behaviour, for which she was on probation.

3) She was a minor

4) She was mentally ill

NONE of this justifies 4 year of imprisonment! A fully sane adult would not have served 4 years behind bars had they comitted the same offences. If she murdered someone it may be a different story.

Any self-repsecting Correction Canada official who took any interest in their job whatsoever would have understood that they were going down the wrong path with this inmate instead of just punching out at 5pm and shuffling her off to another prison.

Corrections Canada is NOT a mental health institution. They are a criminal punishment institution. Their expertese and resources in the subject of mental health are limited. Inmates' access to these limited programs are dependent upon, among other things, the personal initiative, whims and inclinations of those supervising them.

And throwing her in solitary confinement for indefinite periods is not part of any mental health treatment program, that's just some power-tripping corrections offer getting his jolies showing her who's boss.

[Benn]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

I don't think any of her "crimes" amounted to much more than of the throwing apples variety.

I think you'd be surprised of her activities prior to being jailed. This is a girl that would randomly attack people on the street for fun.

1)She wasn't beating people's heads in with a baseball bat, her earlier criminal charges didn't even warrant a prison sentence they were so minor in nature.

2) The offence that landed her in jail was in fact throwing the apples - in the context of earlier behaviour, for which she was on probation.

3) She was a minor

4) She was mentally ill

Well that's why there is an appeals process. This is a court issues. Corrections never sentenced her, they just got stuck with her. As I mentioned we can't just decide we don't want her anymore and drop her on the Mental hospital doorstep. A judge / psych doctor has to sign off on that.

$1:

And throwing her in solitary confinement for indefinite periods is not part of any mental health treatment program, that's just some power-tripping corrections offer getting his jolies showing her who's boss.

Yeah I go to work every day hoping I get to do this.