[andyt]

Even there I'm ambivalent. What I see is a progression from Judaism, that does not want to convert people, to Christians who certainly did, and killed to do so, or used Christianity as an excuse for conquest, but still had a leading figure who was about peace and turning the other cheek, to Islam which had a founder that lived by the sword. (sorry for the run on sentence) Ie violence just seems more integral to Islam. I don't pretend to be a religious scholar, but that's how it seems to me - ie Islam is more easily used to justify violence.

But no doubt there is something to what you say. I would say even the fact that Muslims are backward is in part because of religion tho - they didn't have a reformation. It's an interesting question by Europeans became dominant (at least up to now), what factors led to this. Nobody has a definitive answer, but I do think Christianity played a role, as I say in the enhancing of individual worth. Also led to social alienation with breakdown of community connections tho. Who knows

We can go round and round about this. I think it's a fact that the West faces danger that can be identified with Islam. I think some people go way overboard in harping about this, but we don't want to close our eyes either.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Muslims because the kill in the name of Allah or Christians who kill in the name of politics?

Really good question, but if it comes down to us vs them, I know what I would choose. The problem is if us is the enemy, ie we caused them to go after us - and that's an endless debate.

[llama66]

andyt andyt:

Not sure what you mean, but I have as little use for IRA supporters. Just that they are a far smaller group that hasn't, that I'm aware of, caused any shit here.

The Troubles had other groups of which the IRA was the most well known.
but there were also (off the top of my head)

Provisional Irish Republican Army
Official Irish Republican Army
Real Irish Republican Army

Ulster Defence Association
Ulster Volunteer Force
Ulster Freedom Fighters
Red Hand Commando

the Irish are a creative lot when it comes to naming their forces...

[Jabberwalker]

There are many ways of saying "I am a Fascist".

[N_Fiddledog]

OK so what we have so far is a few pages going madly off in many directions arguing with what you seem to believe my "rhetoric" is, but I can't help noticing nobody's actually heard that rhetoric yet.

So let's do that.

My point would concern abrogation. That was how this began on the other thread. I was explaining what abrogation was.

Islamic ideology is more than religion. It is organized to become a collection of political, cultural, and legal commands governing all nuance of existence. One might make the point you could say that about Christianity. Not exactly. In Islam it is command written into the texts. One might make the point you could say that about Christianity. Not exactly. Islam is dualistic. The dualism has to do with the history of Mohammed.

Mohammed in Mecca is a religious figure. The texts give the religion. Apparently an angel gave this religion to Mohammed in a cave. Myself I can't help noticing the angel seems kind of repetitive, because most of what he offers we've heard before in the bible. Nevertheless there it is.

So there's Mohammed preaching his rehashed religion in Mecca, and somehow he manages to piss off the Meccans. Off goes Mohammed and his 100 or so followers to Medina, because they've become such jerks they've been kicked out of Mecca.

On his way he comes up with this concept called Jihad. I don't know if there was a cave to talk to an Angel nearby or not but all of sudden there's Jihad.

Now a new Mohammed turns up. All of a sudden there's promises of death to enemies, and allies are turned on, caravans are attacked, loot is plundered, and the women and children of the butchered are enslaved. All the atrocities of war become common place. Mohammed's 100 or so religious acolytes, become an army of thousands of slavering head whackers, because apparently the ideology of war and banditry is easier to sell. This ideology has a rule for all behavior. Often these rules are nasty.

But now the scholars have a problem, you see. Now they must explain why the religious texts of Mecca are contradicting the ideology of warring bandits one sees in the texts from Medina. This where abrogation comes in.

Abrogation says if an older text is contradicted by a newer one the more recent rule takes precedence. Thus you have the ideologically endorsed barbarism you have been seeing since Mohammed died and his followers spread out from Arabia and began their campaigns of barbaric Jihad on the unbelievers.

Are their still Muslims quoting Mecca religion and just happy to get by and not be bothered? Of course there are. Are there also those locked into the abrogated manifesto of barbarism from Medina? Yup. In fact today, there are more Muslims being killed than infidels, and there are lot of infidels being killed. Look around and see which side - Mecca or Medina - is more likely to take control.

But there's one thing we can take as an absolute fact. The atrocities perpetrated under the command of the abrogated Koran do not pale in comparison next to those done in the name of Christianity. It's not even close.

So there you have it. If you truly want to argue with what I believe, you can now proudly say you actually know what that is.

[andyt]

Good show. You finally wrote something I can wrap my head around. I don't know how accurate it is, but seems to have some validity by my limited knowledge.

You seem to agree that there are many Muslims who for whatever reason more live Islam as the religion of peace. Most just want to get by the way we all do. We know there are many who want to practice jihad against the West. We know there are Muslims who practice barbaric practices. Now what?

[Public_Domain]

Gunnair Gunnair:

andyt andyt:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

What I don't understand is why is the little Prog-pod here is so desperate to disbelieve facts that might contradict their dogma. Why do they prefer to believe obvious lies?

Edit: No wait. That's not accurate. It isn't that they necessarily believe their obvious BS. It's more they will make it hard on anybody who doesn't agree with it.

Got some quotes to back that up? Who's in this prog pod on CKA, and what are the obvious lies they believe?

All non Beckers, Birchers and Birthers are by default members of the Prog Pod.

In other words, unless you're some zealot or extremist, you're out of the exclusionary extremist cabal and are instead stuck amongst the pod of filthy moderates.

Can I be the Prog Lord? Has a fun ring to it, even if it sounds like I'm the highest-ranked mutant frog creature

[N_Fiddledog]

andyt andyt:

Good show. You finally wrote something I can wrap my head around. I don't know how accurate it is, but seems to have some validity by my limited knowledge.

You seem to agree that there are many Muslims who for whatever reason more live Islam as the religion of peace. Most just want to get by the way we all do. We know there are many who want to practice jihad against the West. We know there are Muslims who practice barbaric practices. Now what?

Yeah I wouldn't get to hasty about that whole me believing Islam is a religion of peace thing.

It's more like I believe parts of Islamic ideology is religion, and followers can be peaceful.

However I also believe there have been four studies done that come up with similar results saying 80% of Muslim mosques in the United States bring in people to preach radicalized - what I will call - abrogated Medinaism.

A Pew study showed worrysome chunks of Muslim populations are becoming friendly to ideas like suicide bombings are a good idea.

What I'm calling the Mohammedan Medinites operate under an enemy ideology to the West and they can exert great influence. These guys are barbaric, and they demand barbarism while offering ideological imprimatur.

Remember the Nazis began their rise to the top with 18.3% percent of the vote, and once the the Medinites get control of the Mosque you don't get a choice about being a religion of peace.

[N_Fiddledog]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Can I be the Prog Lord?

Nah. You're not nasty enough.

[DrRosen]

In 1620, the Dutch decided that, rather than trading with heathen Muslims on the island of Lonthar, they would massacre the entire population of the island. 13,000 were butchered and the few who survived were shipped into slavery in the mace fileds on Java. Oddly enough, afterwards the Dutch nearly destroyed the nutmeg groves on Lonthar so badly that they had to return those slaves back to the island to repair the problems of their own mismanagement. There are countless stories such as this, Christian Europeans slaughtering worthless Muslims, Hindus, etc.

The various native Muslim populations in the east Indies often fought with one another before the Christians arrived. These traditional enemies, however, quickly united in jihadist uprisings against the Christian invaders who were attempting to control a strategic commodity. The contemporary parallels are Santayanaian to say the least.

source: Charles Boxer, The Dutch Seaborne Empire. New York: Penguin, 1988,

[stratos]

And somehow we the west are supposed to feel guilty about this? Let’s face it both sides, Muslim and Christians, have committed atrocities against each other for a very long time. I say we let it go and move on. We the USA have gotten our revenge for 9/11. We can pull out of Afghanistan and let the world calm down some. Then let the USA stop being the world police.

[CanadianJeff]

I love how the media just run any story with a Muslim nutjob in it as though he's some regular spokesperson for the religion.

It would be like some newspaper running continuous stories about what Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps have to say about Christianity every 2 minutes.

Most Muslims are not out to eat your face or destroy your community they are just human beings who happen to believe in a different set of made up bullshit stories out of a different old book then you do.

The real problem here is the lack of education in some sectors of the Muslim world. Educated people don't take their religion nearly as literally for some odd reason....

[andyt]

stratos stratos:

And somehow we the west are supposed to feel guilty about this? Let’s face it both sides, Muslim and Christians, have committed atrocities against each other for a very long time. I say we let it go and move on. We the USA have gotten our revenge for 9/11. We can pull out of Afghanistan and let the world calm down some. Then let the USA stop being the world police.

Funny how you say this in response to Rosen's post but not all the raving we've had from Fiddle Dog.

We can't let Muslim attacks just "go" but we could open the conversation up to asking ourselves what are the causes behind them. But next time somebody tries that, see what happens in the media or on this forum. Breeding the kind of hatred that Fiddle Dog is trying to do is not helpful. We do need to find a way to connect with the Muslims who are not supportive of terrorism or barbarism

[stratos]

So I take it that you do feel guilty for things that happened in 1620? I'm tired of being told that muslims are doing things today for acts commited hundreds of years ago. If we are going to base all rational upon that premiss then the muslims will be in a very bad spot historicaly speaking.

Why should I respond to N-Fiddledogs words when you, rosen and others all seem to just love to respond to them. Then again I did respond to his, yours and everyone else who loved spewing hate for and against in this thread. I'll repeat them sense you missed it. "Let’s face it both sides, Muslim and Christians, have committed atrocities against each other for a very long time.I say we let it go and move on."

[martin14]

stratos stratos:

So I take it that you do feel guilty for things that happened in 1620? I'm tired of being told that muslims are doing things today for acts commited hundreds of years ago.

It's because they cannot defend the actions of Muslims today, as bad as they want to.

So they best they can do is make fake equivalence with stuff that happened
centuries ago, to make all whitey feel bad.

And, of course, to derail threads wherever they see them.

They can do no more.