[fifeboy]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

That chart is from a pro-gun site. I'm not sure how deadly accurate it is, but I believe there's a basic truth in it.

But if you want to make an issue of it show me where you're getting your stats, because although I know there's a basic truth in yours I also know that gun grabbers often sneak things like suicides into their gun violence stats to inflate them. Also many are out of date.

But as to debatable technicalities embedded in basic truths I found these interesting.

$1:

Switzerland has relatively lenient gun control for Europe 5, and has the third-lowest homicide rate of the top nine major European countries, and the same per capita rate as England and Wales, where restrictions are much tighter

$1:

“We don’t have as many guns [in Brazil] as the United States, but we use them more.” 8 Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration, and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. Their homicide rate is almost three (3) times higher than the U.S.

$1:

Fact: In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. 10 In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000). 11

Fact: One study of Canadian firearm law and homicide rates spanning 34 years “failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates” for three major gun control bills. 12

Fact: Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries. 13

Fact: The crime rate is 66% higher in four Canadian Prairie Provinces than in the northern US states across the border. 14

Again, I'm not sure how deadly accurate or up to date all those are but I do believe they illustrate a basic truth.

As far as this issue goes there are problems when comparing statistics by region.

Oh Goodness...there's that The Swiss blah, blah, blah argument. Why again do the Swiss have so many firearms in private hands? What do they use them for??? What are they practicing for. William Tell anyone?

[PluggyRug]

herbie herbie:

Oh FFS you're still responding to arming teachers? Because the absolute retards won't stop saying it's a good idea?
Yeah they'll just say it over and over and over until most people believe it like every other moronic notion they support.

$1:

And They Expect Americans To Forfeit Our Self-Defense Rights

See? They all accept shit like this down there. American society has already collapsed but don't admit it. Don't think of getting an alarm system a yard light or a dog. Don't shout out or call the cops if you see someone prowling in the neighbour's yard. Only guns will do. That's soshulism. Ya can't have soshulism without a society, so make sure to wreck society to save us from it....

So you would have teachers fighting gun toting mental midgets with their bare hands instead.

Nice.

[desertdude]

Where would one expect a mass shooter to be taken down even before he had a chance to fire off one round. I would think a military base full of trained soldiers ....right

Fort Hood ......... oops!

Fat chance armed teachers would make any difference other than shooting themselves in the ass or blowing some kids head off accidentally.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher ... ile-school


P.S : I am all for Americans having their guns, in fact as I've mentioned before get rid of any existing gun laws too, why bother, just slows down the process of eminent self destruction.

[fifeboy]

Solutions??
Steel doors that will stop most rounds
Deadbolts
Drills to teach students to drop into any room when there is an incident and hold in place until all clear.
Peep holes to see out to find out if the frantic knocking is the perp or a grade 1.
Nothing will save everyone when a rifle bearing psycho stalks, but saving lives as best you can is the way to go.

[Freakinoldguy]

desertdude desertdude:

Where would one expect a mass shooter to be taken down even before he had a chance to fire off one round. I would think a military base full of trained soldiers ....right

Fort Hood ......... oops!

Fat chance armed teachers would make any difference other than shooting themselves in the ass or blowing some kids head off accidentally.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher ... ile-school


P.S : I am all for Americans having their guns, in fact as I've mentioned before get rid of any existing gun laws too, why bother, just slows down the process of eminent self destruction.

Sorry but only the Military police and some on duty personnel were allowed to carry loaded weapons on base at Fort Hood so you're claim that it didn't make any difference is accurate only in the fact that it made victims out of the 13 dead and 30 wounded.

But, for one positive. In the wake of the Fort Hood shooting the DoD began considering the allowing of personnel to carry personal firearms on base. So I guess the US gov't thinks that having armed people walking around will help prevent or at least mitigate another mass shooting.

$1:

The Pentagon recently released detailed guidance that allows U.S. military personnel to carry privately owned, concealed firearms on base, a move that the Army's service chief argued against publicly.

"Arming and the Use of Force," a Nov. 18 Defense Department directive approved by Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work, lays out the policy and standards that allow DoD personnel to carry firearms and employ deadly force while performing official duties.

But the lengthy document also provides detailed guidance to the services for permitting soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guard personnel to carry privately owned firearms on DoD property, according to the document.

Commanders, O-5 and above, "may grant permission to DoD personnel requesting to carry a privately owned firearm (concealed or open carry) on DoD property for a personal protection purpose not related to performance of an official duty or status," the document states.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... -base.html

Here's the directive that prevented most personnel on Military bases from carrying of personal weapons and defending themselves from shooters.

$1:

POLICY
It is DoD Policy:
1. To limit and control the carrying of firearms by DoD
military and civilian personnel. The authorization to carry
firearms shall be issued only to qualified personnel when there
is a reasonable expectation that life or DoD assets will be
jeopardized if firearms are not carried. Evaluation of the
necessity to carry a firearm shall be made considering this
expectation weighed apainst the possible consequences of
accidental or indiscriminate use of firearms. DoD personnel
regularly engaged in law enforcement or security duties shall be
armed. Procedures on authorization to carry and the carrying of
firearms are in enclosure

2. That DoD military and civilian personnel engaged in law
enforcement or security duties shall avoid the use of force
where they can carry out their duties without resorting to its
use. In such cases where the use of force is warranted, DoD
personnel shall use the minimum amount of force necessary to
reach their objective. Deadly force shall only be used as
described in enclosure

3. That when personnel must carry firearms aboard aircraft,
either on their person or in baggage, commercial airline or
military passenger service representatives shall be notified
before the flight departure. Personnel shall carry written
authorization to carry the firearm and proper identification to
include a full-face photograph. If the firearm is carried in
baggage, the weapon shall be unloaded and securely locked in the
baggage. Procedures for the authorization and carrying of
firearms on commercial and/or military aircraft are in enclosure

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf


In short the only one who had a reasonable chance to stop the shooter did. As for the rest of the victims they were just as vulnerable as anyone standing outside that front gate which makes your inference that Fort Hood was full of armed personnel more than a little inaccurate.

[Freakinoldguy]

fifeboy fifeboy:

Solutions??
Steel doors that will stop most rounds
Deadbolts
Drills to teach students to drop into any room when there is an incident and hold in place until all clear.
Peep holes to see out to find out if the frantic knocking is the perp or a grade 1.
Nothing will save everyone when a rifle bearing psycho stalks, but saving lives as best you can is the way to go.

You forgot one thing though. If you have armed security make sure they aren't fucking cowards and will do their jobs and engage these assholes.

[Jabberwalker]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Crist you're stupid.

...and your solution is?

Outlaw that type of guns, morons.

... after they've hauled Trump away, that is.

[fifeboy]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

fifeboy fifeboy:

Solutions??
Steel doors that will stop most rounds
Deadbolts
Drills to teach students to drop into any room when there is an incident and hold in place until all clear.
Peep holes to see out to find out if the frantic knocking is the perp or a grade 1.
Nothing will save everyone when a rifle bearing psycho stalks, but saving lives as best you can is the way to go.

You forgot one thing though. If you have armed security make sure they aren't fucking cowards and will do their jobs and engage these assholes.

Good point. IF what they say is true than it's very sad about the police.

[N_Fiddledog]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

In short the only one who had a reasonable chance to stop the shooter did. As for the rest of the victims they were just as vulnerable as anyone standing outside that front gate which makes your inference that Fort Hood was full of armed personnel more than a little inaccurate.

Yeah. It isn't enough for DD to just go "Ha Ha...Fort Hood."

If he wants to tell the story, he should tell the story:

$1:

Base civilian police Sergeant Kimberly Munley, who had rushed to the scene in her patrol car, encountered Hasan in the area outside the Soldier Readiness Processing Center.[28] Hasan fired at Munley, who exchanged shots with him using her 9mm M9 pistol. Munley's hand was hit by shrapnel when one of Hasan's bullets struck a nearby rain gutter, and then two bullets struck Munley: the first bullet hit her thigh, and the second hit her knee.[15][25] As she began to fall from the first bullet, the second bullet struck her femur, shattering it and knocking her to the ground.[15][25] Hasan walked up to Munley and kicked her pistol out of reach.[29]

As the shooting continued outside, nurses and medics entered the building. An unidentified soldier secured the south double doors with his ACU belt and rushed to help the wounded.[30] According to the responding nurses, there was so much blood covering the floor inside the building, that they were unable to maintain balance, and had difficulty reaching the wounded to help them.[31] In the area outside the building, Hasan continued to shoot at fleeing soldiers. Herman Toro, Director of the Soldier Readiness Processing Site, arrived at this time. Hasan had gone around the building and was out of sight, but still shooting. Toro and another site worker rushed to assist Lieutenant Colonel Juanita Warman who was down on the ground north of the medical building. They both took her by the arms and tried to carry her to safety when Hasan returned and aimed his red laser across Toro's chest, but did not fire. Toro took cover behind an electrical box and saw civilian police Sergeant Mark Todd arrive and shout commands at Hasan to surrender.[25] Todd said: "Then he turned and fired a couple of rounds at me. I didn't hear him say a word, he just turned and fired."[32] The two exchanged shots, and then Hasan's pistol was empty. He stopped, turned and reached into his pocket for a new magazine and was felled by five shots from Todd,[3][33] who ran over to him, kicked the pistol out of his hand and put handcuffs on him as he fell unconscious.[34]

Also he forgot to mention this:

$1:

Hasan was shot and as a result paralyzed from the waist down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

I mean if DD wants to Rah Rah and lift his boy on his shoulder for cheers he should know it's going to be a dead lift.

Also that wasn't the last Fort Hood shooting. The next time it happened they were a little more ready. He still got 3 though but then...

$1:

The gunman also died. He was engaged by military police before he fatally shot himself in the head, said the Army post's commander, Lt. Gen. Mark A. Milley.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/02/us/fort- ... index.html

[PluggyRug]

desertdude desertdude:

Where would one expect a mass shooter to be taken down even before he had a chance to fire off one round. I would think a military base full of trained soldiers ....right

Fort Hood ......... oops!

Fat chance armed teachers would make any difference other than shooting themselves in the ass or blowing some kids head off accidentally.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher ... ile-school


P.S : I am all for Americans having their guns, in fact as I've mentioned before get rid of any existing gun laws too, why bother, just slows down the process of eminent self destruction.

Those killed at Fort Hood were unarmed.

The perp was taken down by armed police.

Edit Fog beat me to it.

[PluggyRug]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Crist you're stupid.

...and your solution is?

Outlaw that type of guns, morons.

... after they've hauled Trump away, that is.

What type of gun would that be?

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

That chart is from a pro-gun site. I'm not sure how deadly accurate it is, but I believe there's a basic truth in it.

But if you want to make an issue of it show me where you're getting your stats, because although I know there's a basic truth in yours I also know that gun grabbers often sneak things like suicides into their gun violence stats to inflate them. Also many are out of date.

But as to debatable technicalities embedded in basic truths I found these interesting.

$1:

Switzerland has relatively lenient gun control for Europe 5, and has the third-lowest homicide rate of the top nine major European countries, and the same per capita rate as England and Wales, where restrictions are much tighter

$1:

“We don’t have as many guns [in Brazil] as the United States, but we use them more.” 8 Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration, and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. Their homicide rate is almost three (3) times higher than the U.S.

$1:

Fact: In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. 10 In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000). 11

Fact: One study of Canadian firearm law and homicide rates spanning 34 years “failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates” for three major gun control bills. 12

Fact: Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries. 13

Fact: The crime rate is 66% higher in four Canadian Prairie Provinces than in the northern US states across the border. 14

Again, I'm not sure how deadly accurate or up to date all those are but I do believe they illustrate a basic truth.

As far as this issue goes there are problems when comparing statistics by region.

Switzerland is a red herring. Military service is mandatory, reservists are required to keep their weapons at home, and veterans are allowed to purchase them upon honourable discharge. And Swiss still have the highest gun murder and suicide rate in Europe.

Also there are no carry permits in Swiitzerland.

$1:

Prof Killias cannot hide his anger with those in America who use Switzerland to illustrate their argument that more gun ownership would deter or stop violence.
"We don't have a gun culture!" he snaps, waving his hand dismissively.
"I'm always amazed how the National Rifle Association in America points to Switzerland - they make it sound as if it was part of southern Texas!" he says.
"We have guns at home, but they are kept for peaceful purposes. There is no point taking the gun out of your home in Switzerland because it is illegal to carry a gun in the street. To shoot someone who just looks at you in a funny way - this is not Swiss culture!"

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912

[Coach85]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

That chart is from a pro-gun site. I'm not sure how deadly accurate it is, but I believe there's a basic truth in it.

It doesn't matter what you believe. The only thing that matters is the actual numbers.

And why waste your time and our time with a source you didn't bother to check?

If you want to debate the issue on a granular level, you should be willing to put in the time to back up your comments with actual facts or just bow out.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

As far as this issue goes there are problems when comparing statistics by region.

But pro-gun people like yourself do this all the time, just like you did with Switzerland. Unfortunately, your source is a little muddy as the others above have noted. You can't have it both ways.

[Jabberwalker]

fifeboy fifeboy:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

That chart is from a pro-gun site. I'm not sure how deadly accurate it is, but I believe there's a basic truth in it.

But if you want to make an issue of it show me where you're getting your stats, because although I know there's a basic truth in yours I also know that gun grabbers often sneak things like suicides into their gun violence stats to inflate them. Also many are out of date.

But as to debatable technicalities embedded in basic truths I found these interesting.

$1:

Switzerland has relatively lenient gun control for Europe 5, and has the third-lowest homicide rate of the top nine major European countries, and the same per capita rate as England and Wales, where restrictions are much tighter

$1:

“We don’t have as many guns [in Brazil] as the United States, but we use them more.” 8 Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration, and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. Their homicide rate is almost three (3) times higher than the U.S.

$1:

Fact: In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. 10 In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000). 11

Fact: One study of Canadian firearm law and homicide rates spanning 34 years “failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates” for three major gun control bills. 12

Fact: Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries. 13

Fact: The crime rate is 66% higher in four Canadian Prairie Provinces than in the northern US states across the border. 14

Again, I'm not sure how deadly accurate or up to date all those are but I do believe they illustrate a basic truth.

As far as this issue goes there are problems when comparing statistics by region.

Oh Goodness...there's that The Swiss blah, blah, blah argument. Why again do the Swiss have so many firearms in private hands? What do they use them for??? What are they practicing for. William Tell anyone?

Where do I start? The Swiss are a smarter, better educated, more disciplined and generally more grown up, democratic, sophisticated and worldly than 9/10ths of the American public. Add to that, the careful vetting that each young adult receives when he fulfills his obligatory military obligations that weeds out the crazy. The US is a trashy anarchy. Switzerland is a well made watch. It's as if they are different species. You are comparing modern Man to Neanderthals.

[martin14]

fifeboy fifeboy:

Solutions??
Steel doors that will stop most rounds
Deadbolts
Drills to teach students to drop into any room when there is an incident and hold in place until all clear.
Peep holes to see out to find out if the frantic knocking is the perp or a grade 1.
Nothing will save everyone when a rifle bearing psycho stalks, but saving lives as best you can is the way to go.

Hey, why not just throw some bars on the windows and some barbed wire
around the perimeter, then you can call it what it really is.

a KZ.

Stupid Communist.