[andyt]

$1:

While it may be a banality, it is still worth noting that the current cycle of Israeli-Palestinian violence did not begin on June 12 with the abduction and murder of three Israeli teenage boys.

Nor did it begin on May 15, when Israeli border guards shot dead two unarmed Palestinian youths after they had participated in a protest near Ramallah. Cameras recorded the cold-blooded shootings for all Palestinians to see, increasing the likelihood that the subsequent murder of the three Israelis was an act of vengeance.

These two events are simply milestones that mark the endless daily violence inflicted mainly on the Palestinians by their Israeli occupiers. Israel's justification is security. But even the United States, Israel's closest ally and most ardent military sponsor, has begun to doubt that wisdom.

"Israel confronts an undeniable reality: It cannot maintain military control of another people indefinitely. Doing so is not only wrong but a recipe for resentment and recurring instability," Philip Gordon, special assistant to U.S. President Barack Obama and the White House coordinator for the Middle East, said in Israel this week. "It will embolden extremists on both sides, tear at Israel's democratic fabric and feed mutual dehumanization."

Israel, he claimed, is not committed to peace. "How will it have peace if it's unwilling to delineate a border, end the occupation and allow for Palestinian sovereignty, security and dignity? How will we prevent other states from supporting Palestinian efforts in international bodies, if Israel is not seen as committed to peace?" Gordon went on to commend Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who "has shown time and again that he's committed to non-violence and coexistence and co-operation with Israel."

Gordon's words marked a departure from the usual unwavering support for Israel. Essentially, he was saying that Israel is a country that sees its security only in terms of a destabilized Middle East. That peace is not an option for Israel was made abundantly clear by its swift escalation of the violence stemming from the abduction and murder of the three teenagers.

Israel reacted to the June 12 abduction by immediately blaming Hamas, the militant group that had recently formed a unity government with Abbas's Fatah party. Despite Israeli opposition, the U.S. supported the coalition, hoping that it would help return Israel to the peace table. Hamas has repeatedly denied any involvement in the murders. Several Israeli commentators have questioned why Hamas would commit an act of terrorism that would destroy its coalition with Fatah.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wasted no time in priming the country for revenge and accusing the international community of deserting Israel.

Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations Ron Prosor took to the international stage. "It has been five days since our boys went missing and I ask the international community, where are you? Where are you?" he said last month. He then attacked the Palestinian unity government, saying: "All those in the international community who rushed to bless this marriage should look into the eyes of the heartbroken parents and have the courage to take responsibility by condemning the kidnapping.

The international community bought into a bad deal and Israel is paying for it."

Ample evidence exists that Israeli authorities knew the three boys were dead within hours of their abduction. The Jerusalem Post later reported that an emergency call made to police by one of the victims recorded gunshots being fired and one terrorist saying in Arabic, "We got three." The abductors' burnt car was found the next day, riddled with bullet holes and blood stains. There is also evidence that Israeli intelligence knew by June 13 the identities of the killers, but kept the information secret so no one would question the claim that Hamas was responsible for the murders. After the boys' bodies were found in a shallow grave on property owned by one of the suspects, Netanyahu issued a biblical Tweet: "Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created. Neither has vengeance for the blood of 3 pure youths ..." A week later CCTV cameras in Jerusalem filmed a group of men abducting a 16-year-old Palestinian boy. A hiker found his body the next day in a wooded area. The autopsy indicated he had been beaten and then burned alive. Israeli police have since arrested six Israelis - all members of an "extremist Jewish group," according to police - in connection with the murder. Israeli border guards later arrested the murdered boy's cousin, an American high school student visiting from Florida. The Israeli paper Haaretz reported that a video shows he was beaten by three police officers.

Three days of Israeli bombings have struck 780 sites in Gaza, killing at least 80 people. At least eight members of a Palestinian family were killed while watching Wednesday's World Cup semifinal at a beachfront café. More than 500 Palestinians have been injured. On the Israeli side, officials reported nine Israelis have been lightly injured, mainly running to bomb shelters, according to the Washington Post.

State department spokesperson Jen Psaki said Wednesday the U.S. supports Israel's right to defend itself against rocket attacks. Asked whether the U.S. also supports the right of self-defence for Palestine's civilian population, she said there's a "strong difference" between "rocket attacks launched by a terrorist organization that is based in Gaza and the right of Israel to defend itself."

Yet when Israel launched its airstrikes, sparking a Hamas retaliation, what exactly was it defending itself against?

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/desi ... story.html

[andyt]

Delwin Delwin:

I agree that there is no military solution, obviously they are not going to win or even stalemate the IDF. The problem with demonstration in this case is that it would go largely unnoticed and the status quo would be maintained. Settlement would continue and nothing would change. They are largely fenced in and so have little voice with the larger Isreali popuation.

In my view, this is part of the reason they elected Hamas in the first place, they were sick of the status quo. Since the Oslo accord, the number of settlements tripled and the perimeter continued to close in. They saw Fatah as largely ineffective and corrupt and were desperate for change. If it was as simple as, just be nice and everything will fix itself, it would have been accomplished a long time ago.

Lets also remember that the settlements being discussed are not a bunch of tents, these are entire cities with shopping malls, schools and even a university.

This type of investment isn't made without thorough planning. Investors aren't thinking, OK, I'll build a city and hope the conflict doesn't end in 6 months. There was a degree of confidence that they would be recouping their investment.

This is a picture of the wall and another of a settlement Ariel. Named after Sharon.

So what's your suggestion as to what they should do. Certainly what they are doing now isn't working for them, just gives Israel more excuses to be repressive and say "see, we gave you the Gaza strip and you keep firing rockets at us."

I'm not talking about a demonstration but civil disobedience. Block the roads that lead to the settlements, stop working for the Israelis, as many do, rise up, but non-violently. Doubt if the IDF violence would get any worse than it already is, and pics of IDF soldiers shooting peaceful civilians would get attention, including in Israel. As it stands, they are being ethnically cleansed in slo-mo, and their violent reaction, as I say, just gives an excuse to Israel.

But I don't think they have this in them culturally. Islam just isn't a vehicle for non-violent action, it seems, the way Hinduism was.

[Goober911]

monty16 monty16:

desertdude desertdude:

More Memri junk and the last one is really not helping your cause, you're so washed up in your propaganda you cant even realise which is for and against you.

Which leads to the obvious question. Why are you bothering with them? This forum looks like it's a teenage clusterfuck because good people take these punks seriously!

They don't care if they are proven wrong time after time because all that's stuck in their vacant fucking heads is US/Zionist apologizing.

So am I a Zionist apologist?
I ask as I am well passed my teenage years.

[desertdude]

And was Tahrir square all about, I understand you have biases Andy and whether i like it or not I have to respect that bit it is kinda disappointing to see such statements from someone like you. Fiddly and gang I don't care about.

[andyt]

desertdude desertdude:

And was Tahrir square all about, I understand you have biases Andy and whether i like it or not I have to respect that bit it is kinda disappointing to see such statements from someone like you. Fiddly and gang I don't care about.

I understand. But Tahrir square had lots of rapes and attacks on women, and all it accomplished was to install another dictatorship. The Arab spring just didn't seem to work out anywhere. Meanwhile India at least has democracy (as good as you can have with that much wealth disparity) and does or at least did pretty well in having a multi-religious country with reasonable rights for all. (Just compare India with Pakistan, even Bangladesh.)

Don't really see that in the Muslim world. Yes I have my biases, one of which is that as a group y'all have a long ways to go to get your act together. No real exemplar of Muslim democracy vs India. Lots of great Muslim individuals, forward thinking, tolerant of other religions and atheism, but they are drowned out by the many many Muslims who aren't. "You say you want a reformation, well you know, it's time to change your world."

[GreenTiger]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Here ya go Denser. Apologize for these guys. Tell us it's dubbed, or something.

Sounds like an Arab version of the Wansee conference.

[desertdude]

andyt andyt:

desertdude desertdude:

And was Tahrir square all about, I understand you have biases Andy and whether i like it or not I have to respect that bit it is kinda disappointing to see such statements from someone like you. Fiddly and gang I don't care about.

I understand. But Tahrir square had lots of rapes and attacks on women, and all it accomplished was to install another dictatorship. The Arab spring just didn't seem to work out anywhere. Meanwhile India at least has democracy (as good as you can have with that much wealth disparity) and does or at least did pretty well in having a multi-religious country with reasonable rights for all. (Just compare India with Pakistan, even Bangladesh.)

Don't really see that in the Muslim world. Yes I have my biases, one of which is that as a group y'all have a long ways to go to get your act together. No real exemplar of Muslim democracy vs India. Lots of great Muslim individuals, forward thinking, tolerant of other religions and atheism, but they are drowned out by the many many Muslims who aren't. "You say you want a reformation, well you know, it's time to change your world."

Remind me to give you a detailed reply later on, like I said its getting late.

[N_Fiddledog]

monty16 monty16:

desertdude desertdude:

More Memri junk and the last one is really not helping your cause, you're so washed up in your propaganda you cant even realise which is for and against you.

Which leads to the obvious question. Why are you bothering with them? This forum looks like it's a teenage clusterfuck because good people take these punks seriously!

They don't care if they are proven wrong time after time because all that's stuck in their vacant fucking heads is US/Zionist apologizing.

Only nine posts and we get to meet the real you do we?


Ultimately all you guys are alike. All you ever bring to the table is smug insults.

DD's pissed because Memri shines light on the atrocities. Denser and a pack of pot calling the kettle black, Progs, Communists and Islamists don't want you to hear the translations so you can hear what these maniacs in the Middle East are actually up to. So they call names. Can they show it all isn't true? No. Can you? No. But you can mock so that makes you correct, right? And because you subscribe to a certain sort of group think everybody else must, right? Nah.

It is to shake one's head. The guy from the land of tagiyya (no it is not just shia) wants to call propaganda if anybody opposes the guys who invented Green Helmet guy, Black Burqa woman (look em up)and Pallywood.

And now the new child who has no facts to support his childish BS calls teenager.

Hey you're not from Florida are you? You sound familiar.

[BRAH]

monty16 monty16:

desertdude desertdude:

More Memri junk and the last one is really not helping your cause, you're so washed up in your propaganda you cant even realise which is for and against you.

Which leads to the obvious question. Why are you bothering with them? This forum looks like it's a teenage clusterfuck because good people take these punks seriously!

They don't care if they are proven wrong time after time because all that's stuck in their vacant fucking heads is US/Zionist apologizing.

Meh, climb back into your mothers vagina.

[Delwin]

If you can't understand why Mermi, who was co-founded by former IDF colonel Yigal Carmon and Isreali born Meyrav Wurmser whom is married to Dick Chenney's former middle east advisor has an inherent bias towards Isreal, then you have your head up your ass.

Again, Fibby has posted the opinions of individuals who hold radical views. Of course, if I wanted I could posts videos of 100 different opinions from the other side who hold equally radical views but I don't really see how that would help discussion. People know there are nuts on both sides. It demonstrates nothing.

By the way, I heard there is a terrorist in downtown Toronto. I guess it's time to start the air raids, should probably just carpet bomb the whole area to be safe.

[Thanos]

Delwin Delwin:

By the way, I heard there is a terrorist in downtown Toronto. I guess it's time to start the air raids, should probably just carpet bomb the whole area to be safe.

This guy?

[Delwin]

That's the one. On second thought, Plan B, we'll smoke him out.

[Thanos]

Smoke him out like a big beef brisket.

[Unsound]

Thanos Thanos:

Smoke him out like a big beef brisket.

More closely resembles a pork butt, imho

[N_Fiddledog]

Delwin Delwin:

If you can't understand why Mermi, who was co-founded by former IDF colonel Yigal Carmon and Isreali born Meyrav Wurmser whom is married to Dick Chenney's former middle east advisor has an inherent bias towards Isreal, then you have your head up your ass.

Nobody is saying "Memri" is not biased. Show me somebody involved here who isn't. The video posted of the guy who's criticizing Memri is Ibrahim Hooper. Do you know who he is? He's the National Communications Director and spokesperson for CAIR. Do you know what CAIR is?

I'll tell you what...the post on criticisms of Memri came from Wikipedia. Here's one from Wikipedia.

$1:

CAIR has been criticized numerous times by various officials and organizations. The organization was criticized as pursuing an extremist Islamist agenda,[2] and putting out propaganda.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on ... _Relations

In fact the Memri critique somehow managed to find video of a rare example of Hooper sounding reasonable. Wanna see what he really sounds like? Here's a link to a video of Megyn Kelly grilling him about criticisms made against himself and CAIR.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/04/10/yo ... lam-critic

So yes Memri's biased. His critics are biased. I could go through that entire Wikipedia critique article and defend it with Wikipedia, even though Wikipedia itself is biased.

DD is biased. He posted that novella of Wikipedia critique, but did not show you what followed. If you'll recall one of the Memri critiques was their selective tendency in what they chose to offer the public.

Here's what DD didn't want to show you.

$1:

Response by MEMRI

MEMRI responds to criticism by saying that the media had a tendency to whitewash statements of Arab leaders,[6] and regularly defends its translations as being representative of actual ME viewpoints, even when the translations themselves are disputed: "MEMRI has never claimed to 'represent the view of the Arabic media', but rather to reflect, through our translations, general trends which are widespread and topical."[5]

Following that is a section called...

$1:

Praise for MEMRI

where there's stuff like this...

$1:

Thomas L. Friedman, a political opinion columnist for The New York Times, has praised MEMRI, and has credited MEMRI with helping to "shine a spotlight on hate speech wherever it appears".[74] Friedman has written in The New York Times that "what I respect about Memri is that it translates not only the ugly stuff but the courageous liberal, reformist Arab commentators as well." In addition, he has cited MEMRI's translations in his op-eds.[75]

Memri is a 501 C says the critique. Oh dear. So what? Media Matters is a 501 C. Think Progress is a 501 C. I can't count how many times I've seen you guys post crap from them, or dealt with partisan polemics that originated there.

Ultimately one has to assume everything concerning the Middle East is biased, edit what can be disproved from your mind then deal with what's left. Watch I'll show you...

Here's another biased report from an organization called PalWatch. At the beginning you'll see Hilary Clinton presented as criticizing Palestinian television and schoolbooks as propaganda.



Is she lying? Is the statement taken out of context? Is it a tricky edit? Is the Palwatch commentator manipulating you with his description?

The answer to all those questions is "who knows?" But you're not going to get anything any more credible than that from either side, so all we who are looking for information to support our arguments can do is present the evidence and rely on the the viewer to discriminate.

Now for me, none of the critiques of Memri copied and pasted from Wikipedia convince me that little girl, Bizmallah was not indoctrinated to hate the Jews, or the bumble-bee show was not pushing those kids to accept the idea killing Jews was a good idea, or that little screaming Palestinian girl was not trained to intentionally intimidate Israeli soldiers into bad behavior for the cameras.

There is outright, fabricated from scratch, lying propaganda like what is called "Pallywood", but that is not what Memri does.