[Lemmy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Who the hell wants to still be working at age 65, let along 75? Hell, I plan to hang 'em up at 55.

And such will be the downfall of the system. People too lazy to work for what they think they deserve.

Lazy has nothing to do with it. 40 years of working in a factory is plenty enough torment for one man's life.

[Canadian_Mind]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Who the hell wants to still be working at age 65, let along 75? Hell, I plan to hang 'em up at 55.

And such will be the downfall of the system. People too lazy to work for what they think they deserve.

Lazy has nothing to do with it. 40 years of working in a factory is plenty enough torment for one man's life.

Alright, so you have worked for 40 years, and can reasonably be expected to live for another 10-20 years. However, the current system that is in place can't sustain you. Have you really earned your keep?

[andyt]

Some of use want to keep working, 'cause we like what we do. When I worked as a logger there was a guy in his 70's still at it. He had the easiest job (landing man) but no job is easy in logging. He liked to quote Hegel at us. I think if people can work, ti's good for them, but unfortunately they get pushed out. OTOH, if someone can afford to retire early and has something in their life to live for, good on them.

We can stand ourselves on our heads and it won't solve the demographic dilemma. Sure we have "room" in Canada, but not room where it counts. And Asia is crawling with people. And as living standards rise there, women also become less interested in popping babies. If you want women to breed, you've got to follow the Muslim example - keep em at home and pregnant. I wouldn't want to live with a woma(e)n like that tho.

Ultimately, no matter what, the planet is finite. Seems to be the sooner we accept that and revise our economies to not be based on continual growth, the better.

[Lemmy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Alright, so you have worked for 40 years, and can reasonably be expected to live for another 10-20 years. However, the current system that is in place can't sustain you. Have you really earned your keep?

RRSPs aren't a new thing, nor is educating people about proper saving. We've known for decades that the CPP wasn't going to support the Baby Boomers' retirement. It's also no secret that folks are living longer. If you haven't planned appropriately for your retirement, too bad.

The CPP doesn't pay out enough for people to live on, solely, now. Retirees know it's only a supplement to one's private savings. I don't see what you're so in a twist over.

[Canadian_Mind]

Just seems unfair that in 20 years i'm going to be supporting more retirees than you had to when you were my age. And maybe you have a good plan for early retirement, so awesome. But my stepdad doesn't, and also wants to retire within the next 5 years. And said straight to my face a long time ago that it would be my CPP contributions paying for his retirement.

I don't have a problem with retirement. I think people deserve it, and I want it when my time comes. But if there isn't enough money in the system to support our growing senior population, then we have to do do something to either lower the costs associated with retirement, get more money into the system, or reduce the number of retirees.

I would like to see all three. I don't know how the first can be pulled off. But to handle the second two, I really do think raising the mandatory retirement age, minimum age for CPP benefits, etc. from 65 to 75 will accomplish both. If people like you, with a good plan, choose to retire early, then good for you, go for it. just expect a delay on your CPP benefits. For those who wish to continue working even in their old age, they aren't forced to "quit" or otherwise stop contributing to the system for another 10 years.

[Lemmy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Just seems unfair that in 20 years i'm going to be supporting more retirees than you had to when you were my age.

PARDON FUCKING ME? I'm Generation X, dude, I got to follow the Boomers in life. My generation has been the demographic whipping boy of all-time. Quit your goddamn whining...you're generation's got it a hell of a lotter better than mine.

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

And maybe you have a good plan for early retirement, so awesome. But my stepdad doesn't, and also wants to retire within the next 5 years. And said straight to my face a long time ago that it would be my CPP contributions paying for his retirement.

All retirees say that. It's just good-hearted ribbing. We silently reply "Yeah, but you'll be dead before me, you prick" by smiling like we just took a good zinger.

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I don't have a problem with retirement. I think people deserve it, and I want it when my time comes. But if there isn't enough money in the system to support our growing senior population, then we have to do do something to either lower the costs associated with retirement, get more money into the system, or reduce the number of retirees.

Like I said, the CPP has been nothing more than a supplement for a very long time. Few live solely on CPP. And it's not an expensive program anyway. It's not like you're paying thousands of dollars a year for it anyway.

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I would like to see all three. I don't know how the first can be pulled off. But to handle the second two, I really do think raising the mandatory retirement age, minimum age for CPP benefits, etc. from 65 to 75 will accomplish both. If people like you, with a good plan, choose to retire early, then good for you, go for it. just expect a delay on your CPP benefits. For those who wish to continue working even in their old age, they aren't forced to "quit" or otherwise stop contributing to the system for another 10 years.

75? Half of people 75 years old are dead. How are you gonna sell me on a program I pay into my whole life only to collect it for a week before I'm dead? My solution is to turn CPP into a Welfare Inurance program. It only gets paid out to people who genuinely need it. For the majority of people, just rely on savings. For 9 out 10 retirees now, the CPP is a nice thing to get, but they don't rely on it for survival. Most of us can do without it and for most, it isn't even a going concern as part of our retirement financial plan.

[Canadian_Mind]

Lemmy Lemmy:

PARDON FUCKING ME? I'm Generation X, dude, I got to follow the Boomers in life. My generation has been the demographic whipping boy of all-time. Quit your goddamn whining...you're generation's got it a hell of a lotter better than mine.

All retirees say that. It's just good-hearted ribbing. We silently reply "Yeah, but you'll be dead before me, you prick" by smiling like we just took a good zinger.

Sadly the boomers aren't dying off when they should be (people living longer ya know) So what was a problem for your generation (supporting baby boomers), was just compounded for mine (supporting Generation X AND baby boomers).

Lemmy Lemmy:

Like I said, the CPP has been nothing more than a supplement for a very long time. Few live solely on CPP. And it's not an expensive program anyway. It's not like you're paying thousands of dollars a year for it anyway.

75? Half of people 75 years old are dead. How are you gonna sell me on a program I pay into my whole life only to collect it for a week before I'm dead? My solution is to turn CPP into a Welfare Inurance program. It only gets paid out to people who genuinely need it. For the majority of people, just rely on savings. For 9 out 10 retirees now, the CPP is a nice thing to get, but they don't rely on it for survival. Most of us can do without it and for most, it isn't even a going concern as part of our retirement financial plan.

I currently drop 2 and a half grand on CPP contributions per year. No it isn't a huge amount, but it would be an extra 200 bucks per month in my pocket right now I don't otherwise have. Even if I stay at my current pay grade for a full contract (25 years), that's only 62 000. Now my pay will go up, as surely will my CP contributions, and I hope to be able to work more than 25 years. But at the end of the day, after working for a max of 47 years (18-65), I will have only paid in enough to get at most 10 years worth of CPP back (dollar for dollar).

And when the CPP program first came out, half the same people over 65 were dead. As I see it, it was meant as a welfare program to assist those who could no longer work for themselves in their old age.

And if you don't want to pay into it because you might not be alive for it by the time you are eligible, why the hell would you want to pay into it if you wont be eligible at all? Under your own reasoning it makes more sense for CPP retrieval to be pushed back to 75 where half the people will still benefit from it, verses turning it into an actual welfare system where only 10% will benefit.

But personally, I like the idea of CPP being turned into a welfare system as you suggested.

[Lemmy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

So what was a problem for your generation (supporting baby boomers), was just compounded for mine (supporting Generation X AND baby boomers).

There was a generation ahead of the Boomers for me to pay for that you won't. Gen X is the smallest group to have to pay for. You're getting off easy. Since there was so few of us, you guy had jobs to go into. We started working at age 30. That's why there's so many Gen-X professors...we might as well have stayed in school 'cause there weren't any jobs anyway. And our vote? Oh, yeah, Gen-X has shaped the nation.

Candian_Mind Candian_Mind:

And when the CPP program first came out, half the same people over 65 were dead. As I see it, it was meant as a welfare program to assist those who could no longer work for themselves in their old age.

...and it was also a TRUE pension, enough for one to live on, back in the day.

Candian_Mind Candian_Mind:

And if you don't want to pay into it because you might not be alive for it by the time you are eligible, why the hell would you want to pay into it if you wont be eligible at all? Under your own reasoning it makes more sense for CPP retrieval to be pushed back to 75 where half the people will still benefit from it, verses turning it into an actual welfare system where only 10% will benefit.

Well, I don't really mind paying it, but I view it mostly as a welfare donation. It's not much money. On the other hand, there are a lot more capable organizations than the Federal Government to be running a pension fund. Why don't we get the Ontario Teachers' Pension fund to run the thing? They seem to know how to manage money.

canadian_Mind canadian_Mind:

But personally, I like the idea of CPP being turned into a welfare system as you suggested.

That would cut the majority of users, making it a liveable payout for those that really need it. It would also, likely, be cheaper on the contributors than our current CPP deductions.

[Thanos]

We wouldn't just have an increase in taxes. We'd also have an increase in benefit costs for employees if the retirement age was raised. The douchnozzles at the insurance companys are gonna want their profits protected if they have to cover older workers who are probably statistically more likely to get hurt on the job and/or not likely to return very quickly to work if they are injured. That means both the employer and employee portion would go up in price.

Every angle covered as usual. If you're a sociopath and want an easy way to make money, start up an insurance company. It's not like you'd ever have to pay out or anything.

[andyt]

If it's to be a welfare program, don't have a pay deduction for it at all - we don't have a specific welfare deduction either. Just pay for it out of general revenue, so there's no income cut off where people stop paying into it, as there is now. But you know if it became a welfare program there would be a lot of people howling about how little old ladies are splurging on the deluxe brand of dogfood, living high off the hog the way all those welfare bums are.

Keep it a universal, make sure it'd adequate for people to live simply on, and tax it back from higher income earners with a progressive tax system.

[BeaverFever]

There should be no mandatory retirement, it should be optional. CPP and OAS should pay out to eligible members after a certain age, those who wish to continue working while collecting should do so, in part-time or semi-retirement if they wish, the benefit being adjusted to their earned income.

Employers should go back to Defined Benefit pension plans instead of Defined Contribution Plans and RRSPs that place all the investment risk and most of the plan expenses on the individual worker. The practise by some employers, of deliberately under-funding their pension plans, should be outlawed and pension funds should be fully insured and protected from a company's creditors if the company goes bankrupt.

[PluggyRug]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Sadly the boomers aren't dying off when they should be

Rather a callous statement, don't ya think?

Sorry we old codgers are making you sad.

[smorgdonkey]

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

Makes sense that as people live longer they would have to work longer. Recall that when pensions were first brought in the average person wasn't expected to collect more than 1 year of pension before they died, now people are collecting decades of pensions instead of just a few years.

As for raising Canadians incomes, unless Canada breaks the wal-mart mentality that will not happen. We will always outsource hundreds of good paying jobs for a couple high paying jobs and a tonne of min wage jobs.

I wish that people could understand this but they are too caught up in their little lives to let it sink in.

[bootlegga]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Yea, despite the notion of more jobs being taken by older members of society, I'd support raising the required age of retirement from 65 to 75. the law would be instant, but the actual legislation would be grandfathered in so that the age is increased slowly over 20 years, at a rate of increase of 1 every 2 years. Keeps it fair to people who have just been forced to retire, but still occurs within a reaonable timeframe.

The problem with that is that the average man only lives to 73 or so (women sit at 78), so many would NEVER be eligible for CPP/OAS. No, if they want to change the age, they need to gradually ratchet it up like you suggest, maybe to 67 in the next few years, and then 69/70 a decade or so later.