[EyeBrock]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I certainly do see the media as a major force. However I don't find that anti-Israel bent that some here insist upon--and I provided some evidence to back that up.

Fiddle actually gave a good example of this. It's not overt bias, really, but rather letting people get away with stating completely false information against Israel without challenge. You and I, for example, search and read though information from many sources to stay informed. However, if you get your news/information from a single interview, or a short segment on a 24 hour news program, there is this imbalance of reporting. Maybe not intentional, but just...off.

$1:

I don't really know what the general level of awareness about Hamas and the Gaza blockade is. I'd be interested to find out, actually. I consider myself schooled in foreign policy and world events and even I have to say, I have a hell of a time trying to sort out that mess. Luckily I've got Shepherd's Dog to sort me!

Haha yeah, even I, a rather staunch pro-Israel supporter, didn't realize the avenues and the way aid is sent into Gaza from Israel. Now, I don't know how the aid is handled in Gaza once it's arrived (I'd go with the common way aid is handled anywhere. The leadership takes most of it, and they give their scraps to the masses).

$1:

I'm with EyeBrock--it was a military blunder, both on the strategic and tactical level. Israel has a right to be concerned about weapons getting into Gaza. Apparently Israel already lets aid in, so I don't understand the point of the flotillas--unless theya re to deliberate aggravate Israel into exactly this kind of action. I have no issue with them ensuring that these flotillas don't contain weapons. I just would expect a better execution.

I'd agree. Maybe inspections like this have worked in the past. Hell that I know, I'm not in the IDF. Do I think this was a clusterfuck? Hell yes I do. But in my opinion and general assessment, it's a clusterfuck because Israel let its own soldiers get beaten so severely and harshly before taking any action. I can't even imagine regular police officers or riot control teams in Canada or the US taking that much punishment without resorting to new tactics. On a strategic level, it's bad press. But Israel isn't exactly new to bad press

CK,

I can't comment on IDF policy but I can say that Canadian and UK Police would not be so free to throw officers into the cauldron.

Having also spent a decade in the regular Brit military, I can't see any UK commander disregarding his/her team's safety in such a way that the IDF did on this botched boarding. These are not minor details.

The IDF put themselves in harms way.

This ship was in international waters and this was a very silly mission tactically and unsound strategically.

[ShepherdsDog]

With the Irish ship they can always drop potatoes and bottles of beer out in international waters, delaying them idefinitely, and therefore prevent an incident.

[commanderkai]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

CK,

I can't comment on IDF policy but I can say that Canadian and UK Police would not be so free to throw officers into the cauldron.

Having also spent a decade in the regular Brit military, I can't see any UK commander disregarding his/her team's safety in such a way that the IDF did on this botched boarding. These are not minor details.

The IDF put themselves in harms way.

This ship was in international waters and this was a very silly mission tactically and unsound strategically.

I agree with you. Completely. I've even read that commandos that were being attacked told commandos rappelling down to not shoot at the attacking "activists". Rules of engagement, right?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 96,00.html

"One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows. "

I don't get why this mission was carried out the way it was. At all. I certainly would have used tear gas (although it seems these "activists" had masks as well) or some other crowd control device. I certainly wouldn't have put my commandos under such RoEs, letting them get beaten and stabbed this badly before letting them use live ammo.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I can't really argue with Fiddle because I never watch the news. I just read it.

I'd concede that most people hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas, or even neighbouring countries like Jordan and Lebabnon. I know I do, and maybe that's unfair.

Even I hold Israel to a higher standard. I do defend Israel, and I give them leeway in situations that look/are bad for Israel's reputation, however, there are limits. If Israel indiscriminately started sinking ships approaching Gaza, indiscriminately firing artillery into the Gaza Strip whenever a Palestinian pisses on the wrong side of the border, etc, then I'd lose my support for Israel in a second.

What I'd consider unfair is acting like Hamas as some peasant rebellion. As some David vs Goliath. They're not using pitchforks and scythes, but AK-47s, RPG-7s, unguided rockets, IEDs, so on and so forth. Worse yet, they commonly direct this against CIVILIAN populations, even though Israel has clearly marked military bases, checkpoints, military depots.

On top of this, Hamas/the Palestinians use propaganda quite well. Staging funerals (you can see bodies falling in those funeral parades, and watch them get right back up into their casket), staging battles with teenagers getting "injured" while tossing rocks. The list goes on.

It's not that Israel should not be held to a high standard, but rather we should not let Hamas or whoever else get away with their tactics. Does that make sense?

$1:

Yes, the worst thing about this whole thing--apart from the dead and wounded--is that Hamas is triumphant. Witht he lock they have on Gaza now, it looks like the Gaza Strip is going to going the hardcore Islamist route. The ones I feel sorry for are the Gaza Palestinians who don't agree wiht Hamas. They are routinely executed, their property destroyed, imprisoned.

I agree with you. Israel, or any other Western democracy, when you disagree with a government politically, you're still protected and you won't be targeted or victimized by the majority or those in powers. Liberals and NDP might disagree with the current Canadian government, or Republicans might disagree with the current American government, but you won't see registered Republicans and their families slaughtered, or NDP offices firebombed by the government.

No doubt the Arab Muslims in Israel might feel sympathy for Gaza or the Palestinians. They even have political parties and charities in Israel, I bet. However, as long as they aren't feeding money to Hamas, they're protected by Israel itself.

If you're a Christian, a gay, an atheist/secularist, or even a fan of rock and roll in Gaza, I'd be afraid. And yes, they're the ones who will be punished. They're going to be killed, oppressed, imprisoned, the list goes on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9K ... r_embedded

I'm not sure if you saw this before Zip, but if you haven't, it's rather disturbing.

[N_Fiddledog]

[N_Fiddledog]

commanderkai commanderkai:

What I'd consider unfair is acting like Hamas as some peasant rebellion. As some David vs Goliath.

Wanna see a real David vs Goliath?

[commanderkai]

I saw that. That kid has balls.

[ShepherdsDog]

How do you know the ship was armed??? Jesus, IDF footage showed it, footage from the activists and Turkish broadcasts showed it. Only an idiot...sort of like Neish....could deny the obvious. But then again that's the left for you,'don't believe your eyes and the hard evidence, only believe what we tell you is the truth, because only we know what is good for you.'

[N_Fiddledog]

There's another version of the incident than the one you'll hear from the mainstream networks.

$1:

During Israel's takeover of a Turkish ship in the Gaza-bound aid flotilla this week, some passengers tried to take captive three commandos who lost consciousness as a result of the activists' blows, according to early findings of a navy investigation. The three were dragged into one of the passenger halls below deck and were held there for several minutes.

After dozens of other commandos began searching the ship, the Mavi Marmara, the three soldiers regained consciousness and managed to join their comrades...

This from the Israeli description of the incident. It continues on.

$1:

At this stage, six minutes into the operation, another force landed from a second helicopter, led by a major. At that point they realized that three commandos were missing and they began looking for them. A short while later the naval commando chief landed along with dozens more soldiers, some of whom climbed from boats. Others landed from a third helicopter.

The search involved limited shooting, in the bridge and on the lower deck, until the three men were recovered. The head of the naval commandos gave orders by radio to use live fire, two minutes after the incident had begun.

Shots had been fired earlier, but Lt. Col. A. later explained that in his orders he wanted to make sure that the troops realized that "the mood of the incident had changed."

The soldiers reported that the activists had fired on them during the confrontation and that at least two commandos suffered gunshot wounds. After the incident, 9mm bullet casings were found - a kind not used by the naval commandos.

The Israel Defense Forces says that during the operation a number of pistols and an M-4 rifle were taken from soldiers, but they believe that the Turkish activists had other weapons. The captain of the ship told the naval commando chief that the guns were thrown overboard before the ship was completely taken over.

There's More Here

[GreenTiger]

Very big PR problem for Israel.

[N_Fiddledog]

Israel's existence is a big PR problem for Israel. It will always be for as long as the media only shows one side - the anti-Israel side. With this incident for example we were never shown what those "peace activists" were really looking for in running the blockade.



So what's the solution? Here's the face of the "objective" leftist media, offering you her's.

[N_Fiddledog]

But wait, here's an Israeli describing how the media bias works better than I ever could.

[HyperionTheEvil]

Yes yes yes.


Poor Israel, poor poor oppressed Israel.I mean they were forced to slaughter all those people in Shabra and Shatilia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_ ... e_massacre

[RUEZ]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Yes yes yes.


Poor Israel, poor poor oppressed Israel.I mean they were forced to slaughter all those people in Shabra and Shatilia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_ ... e_massacre

I don't think anyone here has said Israel hasn't made mistakes.

[Wada]

No, nor should they!