[Dayseed]

WIAF WIAF:

Blue_Nose & MissT,

I don't know what you have heard of my "encounters" on this topic, but I should point out these encounters had little to do with GMO per se, but rather exposing my "opponent" as a posturing phony.

But on the topic, the biggest problem is the attempt on both sides to polarize the discussion. On this I put the greater guilt on the pro-GMO crowd. It is they, after all, who take the moral high ground insisting that they have "science" and "logic" on their side and that nothing else matters. Any attempt to fan the flames of moderation is seen as a cop-out. Unless GMOs are enthusiastically embraced, the talk turns to "Luddites" and "Enviro-fearmongers". Are "science" and "logic" so pious that they need to resort to name-calling?

It is possible to raise concerns about biotechnology without dismissing the technology outright. MissT - while often not "scientifically" correct - brings up many of them:

Testing: Little of the testing is available for public scrutiny. This does NOT imply that this testing isn't done, but does suggest that corporative secrecy is paramount. Does it come as a surprise that people might be suspicious of an industry that conducts its affairs so clandestinally?

"Golden" Rice: MissT's comment of 8lbs/day is dated. Recent research has reduced this amount greatly. However, suggesting that Golden Rice is a PR gimmick is not unreasonable. Whether the rice can really have an impact is under debate.

"So sorry if I don't trust companies like Monsanto to act in my interest." Nothing unreasonable here either. Monsanto's incentive is to make money. Nor is it unreasonable to be concerned about industy's involvement in agricultural practices and scientific research. Once again, I stress it is possible to object to these issues without dismissing the technology as a whole. Should the public not be concerned about industry's behaviour when it claims to be conducting tests - yet Monsanto was discovered last year to have been bribing government officials to circumnavigate these tests? But this incident is rarely even mentioned - let alone condemned - by PR websites such as agbioworld.org and industry-sponsored "think tanks".

Enough for now...

WIAF,

I LOVE the avatar! I remember I posted that on HT and Bobby threatened to sue. Then I threatened to have Kirk Cameron counter sue for infringing on his copyrighted Growing Pains image and the issue pretty much died.

Where is our little test-tube cleaner? I imagine he's off dutifuly instructing budding scientists the proper way to arrange a bunsen-burner hose before spending the balance of the evening furiously editing Wikipedia entries on Monsanto and GMF.

Welcome back! If I knew how to link to the Welcome Back Kotter song, I would.

WIAF is back, perhaps Mr. Potatohead and Bobby will follow? Do the rest of us dare incant the name of Herr_Milan and try and bring that thing here?

Jesus Christ. For all the weak-of-heart people on this site, they would NOT be prepared for Little Thing Z and his rapid blur of horribly parsed to EVERY THREAD on the site, including rampant boasts about his expertise on the origins of fascism (Dracula, for those that didn't know), Russian visages (you can tell by the nose), Hitler's persuasive control of German culture (Kids like uniforms and drums) and Stalin was apparently a "big deal" in the Soviet Union. The rampant lawsuits, crying, swearing, challenging people to come to his house to fight him, then posting a bogus address in Toronto before telling people he really lived in Vaughan.

Damn, I'll give Kid Drac one thing, he was damn original and impossible to imitate.

And who else will tell us about Bulgarian cheese, Germanic supremacy and smoking?

TO ALL OTHER MEMBERS: I SWEAR I AM NOT INVENTING A SINGLE THING ABOUT THIS FANTASTIC, NAY, LEGENDARY POSTER.

[Dayseed]

Bluenose,

Sorry to hijack your thread. Somebody should start a Herr_Milan, Where Are You? thread.

[Blue_Nose]

No worries, but you must answer something for me:

Day_seed Day_seed:

I remember I posted that on HT and Bobby threatened to sue.

Were you the cause of the HT forum's demise???

[Mustang1]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

Were you the cause of the HT forum's demise???

Nope. That would be Weapon X aka Drac-boy, aka Little Thing Z aka Falco aka Europa Kopa aka Vlad the Impaler aka Count Dorkula aka the Bulgarian Blast. I don’t think the faint of heart here would be ready for the unleashing of this one.

[Dayseed]

Blue_Nose,

Actually, the forum shut itself down when Herr_Milan wanted to sue Alliance Atlantis if they wouldn't assist him in suing Hormel26C for calling him a name.

Honestly, he's like a forum plague crossed with a retarded tourette's kid. I cannot stress enough how vile (and unintentionally funny) this kid is. He may be more than your sensibilities can handle. Consequently, you'll notice that former HTers on this board get offended at NOTHING. This kid tempered us far more than anyone can ever know.

[Blue_Nose]

Ah okay... I had only heard that it was over a threatened lawsuit, and figured that might have been it.

What did he say that was so outrageous concerning GM? Obviously, there's crooks and fakers on either side of the argument, so I'm assuming he was acting as a corporate lap dog?

[WIAF]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

All valid points, I should add... I guess my main concern is that "environmentalists" are so willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. None of the issues you discussed have been produced by, nor inherent in, GM research, and is rather a function of society as a whole.

I don't doubt that issues such as skepticism of corporate ethics, or harmful effects of the westernization of developing countries, are very valid and significant, yet I disapprove of their being dressed up in scientific clothing, and being argued with valid research as their scapegoat.

Well, then, we seem to be holding very similar positions. Now what?

[WIAF]

Dayseed, Mustang1,

Howdy! "Dr" Bobby is still the same. I could invite him here, but I don't know if our host(s) would appreciate a daily bombardment of copy/paste "research"/spam.

[WIAF]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Jesus Christ. For all the weak-of-heart people on this site, they would NOT be prepared for Little Thing Z and his rapid blur of horribly parsed to EVERY THREAD on the site, including rampant boasts about his expertise on the origins of fascism (Dracula, for those that didn't know), Russian visages (you can tell by the nose), Hitler's persuasive control of German culture (Kids like uniforms and drums) and Stalin was apparently a "big deal" in the Soviet Union. The rampant lawsuits, crying, swearing, challenging people to come to his house to fight him, then posting a bogus address in Toronto before telling people he really lived in Vaughan.

Don't forget his rants in tortured "German" and his ambition to study at a German university.

Dayseed Dayseed:

TO ALL OTHER MEMBERS: I SWEAR I AM NOT INVENTING A SINGLE THING ABOUT THIS FANTASTIC, NAY, LEGENDARY POSTER.

I can vouch for Dayseed on this one. In this case "seeing" may not be quite enough to constitute "believing".

[MissT]

Ach, I tried to post something on patents and Terminator yesterday, but it got lost when the canadaka server went down temporarily. Now I see that the conversation has taken a much more interesting turn! Mind if I carry on in my own vein nonetheless?

Briefly though, my point was that we shouldn't just be considering GM from a "scientific" standpoint. There are also very important socio-economic aspects to the debate which are just as important, if not more, than the science.

GM crops are patented, which means that seed saving is forbidden. It also means that farmers who accidentally get cross-pollinated by GM crops get sued by Monsanto.

This is bad enough in North America:
Monsanto vs Farmers

Now we're looking at Terminator crops being commercialised. Terminator, also known as Varietal Genetic Use Restriction Technologies (v-GURTS) is where the seed has been genetically engineered to make the harvest sterile, so that it is impossible for farmers to save seeds.

In Africa, the concepts of patents on seeds and Terminator gets reactions of total disbelief. Seed saving is everything. 80% of the rural population save their seeds, for those in utter poverty seed is all there is to carry them through to the next year. Anything that threatens their right to save seed is considered a threat to them and their lives.

With Terminator there's also the added risk that it cross-pollinates with neighbouring crops and leaves them sterile too. Spreading seed sterility, lovely. It's an understatement to say this is a threat to food security.

This technology is considered so horrible that there's been an international ban on it for hte last 6 years, put in place by the UN. Now some countries, including Canada, are pusing for it to be legalised again. This is all coming to a head this month at the UN Convention on Biological Diversity meeting.

For me, Terminator just exposes the true agenda of the GM companies. All this "feed the world" blah is obviously horseshit when they are deliberately engineering sterility into seed.

Terminator and patents demonstrate that you need a much broader understanding of GM than purely scientific, to understand its value, impacts and threats. So those "hippies", "organic nuts" "naturalists" "environmentalists" etc that appear so "unscientific" are actually being rather sensible and using a different, and I would say, more appropriate framework to judge the value of this technology to society.

Sorry, I would like to go into it more about Terminator and patents, cos I realise it's a little vague and flaky, but no time, gotta run..!

[Scape]

MissT MissT:

GM crops are patented, which means that seed saving is forbidden. It also means that farmers who accidentally get cross-pollinated by GM crops get sued by Monsanto.

For me, Terminator just exposes the true agenda of the GM companies. All this "feed the world" blah is obviously horseshit when they are deliberately engineering sterility into seed.

Scape Scape:

GM foods are patented. Therefor if you grow them you can be sued by the creator of that strain. GM foods require more expensive fertilizer than organic. Also, once GM food mixes with an organic crop, because there is no way to determine what is GM and what isn't, the whole crop would be considered GM and thus the food and equipment could be seized.

A trade war started this.

This will take it to the next level.

The reason why Iraq is so important here is that it is an opening and a way around the EU to get GM strains mixing and eventually dominating world crops that will be shipped to the EU via the Ukraine bread basket. The EU will then have no choice but to use only GM food thus cornering the market. It's capitalism that will make us in to practicer's of cannibalism.

[dgthe3]

I think that this is about the most civil discussion that I have ever seen here. I agree, at least in part, with nearly everything that has been said so far. However, i am reminded of the saying

$1:

"With great power comes great responcability"

Good words to live by with respect to technology

The issue of how natural or un-natural the practise was brought up a little while back. Genetic engineering was compared to selective breeding saying that the two are equally unatural, just that GE works faster and more efficiently. To me, that claim is like the early claims that nuclear weapons are just really big bombs. At the time, the claim sounded logical, untill they were actually used when it was realized that they were not at all alike.

Also, the terminator seed provides an excellent summary of the practice of genetic engineering as a whole. It was created so that the GE crop wouldnt cross with other, normal crops. That is a noble cause indeed, as that eliminates one of the main concerns of GE. However, it also forces farmers to buy seeds from the company every single year increasing the companies profit margins at the exense of the poor farmer who personally has little to gain from using that seed

I know that GMOs can be very bennificial to humanity yet, as with any new technology, the true impacts will not be known for a long time. The difference between genetic engineering and technology associated with nearly all other forms of engineers is that if a mistake is made with a pharmaceutical drug, it can easily be recalled before any real damage is done and drugs are easily identified. If there is a flaw in a new rocket design, the problem can be fixed and the 'experiment' remains isolated from the general population. The same does not hold true for GMOs. If a mistake is made, it may not be possible to do anything to control the damage.

[Blue_Nose]

MissT MissT:

Briefly though, my point was that we shouldn't just be considering GM from a "scientific" standpoint. There are also very important socio-economic aspects to the debate which are just as important, if not more, than the science.

I didn't say they weren't; my only "beef" is with the arguments dressed up as science. If someone has a political or economic agenda, they shouldn't pretend "science" backs their arguments up, by making up stats, or spinning research results. The same goes for both sides, with the "truth" stuck somewhere in the middle.

MissT MissT:

GM crops are patented, which means that seed saving is forbidden. It also means that farmers who accidentally get cross-pollinated by GM crops get sued by Monsanto.

MissT MissT:

With Terminator there's also the added risk that it cross-pollinates with neighbouring crops and leaves them sterile too. Spreading seed sterility, lovely. It's an understatement to say this is a threat to food security.

So you're worried about GM mingling with other species, yet angered by the fact that the companies have taken measures to prevent this? The simple solution, which is used regularly for nonGM specialty/hybrid crops, to is just make sure the crop is isolated. This is as easy as removing any surrounding wild varieties and putting a bee hive in the field. I had a job as a research assistant for a few years, part of which was seed production of a variety of white clover the company had developed. Plant the crop, spray the surrounding area to kill the wild clover, and set up a hive. It worked fine.

MissT MissT:

This technology is considered so horrible that there's been an international ban on it for hte last 6 years, put in place by the UN. Now some countries, including Canada, are pusing for it to be legalised again. This is all coming to a head this month at the UN Convention on Biological Diversity meeting.

I think you're referring to the five year EU ban on GM crops, because I've never heard of a UN "international ban". Let me know if I've overlooked something.

MissT MissT:

For me, Terminator just exposes the true agenda of the GM companies. All this "feed the world" blah is obviously horseshit when they are deliberately engineering sterility into seed.

Or maybe, they're covering their asses to reduce the risk of the environmental apocalypse as you forsee it.

But to address the intellectual property rights (IPRs) issue in general: simply put, it's nothing new. Private investment (in all fields of research) represents a significant portion of funding, and IPRs are one of the main driving forces in promoting research. New machinery, fertilizers, farming procedures - these are all things have utility protection via patents. Patent protection has been in place for plants and genetic material since 1980, and seeds since 1985.

The downside of IPRs (if you're not just anti-capitalist) is that the patents hinder new research, by limiting access to research by others for further investigation. This draws power away from non-profit and public institutions.

The real question is whether IPRs are, in the long run, beneficial to society. While the companies are obviously benefitting in the short term, is the competitive nature of the private sector pushing development faster and further than the public could?

MissT MissT:

Terminator and patents demonstrate that you need a much broader understanding of GM than purely scientific, to understand its value, impacts and threats. So those "hippies", "organic nuts" "naturalists" "environmentalists" etc that appear so "unscientific" are actually being rather sensible and using a different, and I would say, more appropriate framework to judge the value of this technology to society.

Again, I'm not saying political, economic, and social issues are not important. People should just stop trying to sneak them into scientific research.

[Blue_Nose]

Scape Scape:

The EU will then have no choice but to use only GM food thus cornering the market. It's capitalism that will make us in to practicer's of cannibalism.

You're worse than Greenpeace, Scape. Cannibalism?

[Blue_Nose]

MissT MissT:

With Terminator there's also the added risk that it cross-pollinates with neighbouring crops and leaves them sterile too. Spreading seed sterility, lovely. It's an understatement to say this is a threat to food security.

By the way, I should point this out: "spreading" seed sterility is a bit of a stretch, since any plant affected by a GURT won't produce any viable seeds... the problem is extremely short lived (ie, one generation), and severely outweighed by the benefits of ensuring that GM/weed hybrids do not exist, and that organic growers can be confident any seed they can grow has no traces of genetic modification.