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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:32 am
 


Interesting article on the uneasy relationship between China and North Korea.

$1:
North Korea Invades China
October 18, 2006: China and North Korea have been fighting a minor war over the collection of intelligence inside North Korea. While the North Korean border is, technically, closed very tight, the border guards can be bribed, and North Korea has given up trying to stamp that out completely. So China is able to get spies (usually Chinese who are ethnic Koreans, as are millions of people in northern China) into North Korea, and use cash to recruit more North Koreans as spies, so that China will have a better idea of what is going on inside North Korea. This battle has been going on for several years, and got really serious back in 2003, when North Korean agents paid a large bribe ($300,000) to a Chinese intelligence official, to get the names of Chinese agents operating inside North Korea. The agents were rounded up, interrogated and, most of them were killed. The Chinese were not happy with this, and stepped up their intelligence efforts, bringing in some top talent to make it happen.

The Chinese now have a pretty good idea of what is happening inside North Korea, courtesy of their new agent network. In fact, the new espionage effort has worked it's way up the North Korean chain of command, to include some senior officials. This has made the North Koreans fearful that the Chinese are planning a coup. The Chinese may not be doing that, but it is known that there is a "pro-Chinese" faction within the North Korean government. This group wants to reform the economy, like China has done (and is urging the North Koreans to do). But the "royalist" (pro Kim dynasty) faction fears too much prosperity. That's because, with more wealth, would come more information about the outside world. North Koreans would thus discover how they have been royally screwed by the Kim dynasty. That might create a violent reaction, and the death or exile of the current leadership.

Meanwhile, the intelligence war has now gotten more violent. On October 16th, five North Korean operatives, in civilian clothes, entered China, and tried to kidnap a Chinese intelligence official from a Chinese military base near the border. There was a struggle, there was gunfire, and at least one Chinese soldier was killed. The North Koreans, who apparently failed in their "snatch and run" mission, were seeking to get names of North Koreans working for Chinese intelligence inside North Korea. "Invading" Chine to carry out this task is pretty bold, but not unusual for the North Koreans. Naturally, the Chinese are not happy. The Chinese demanded that the North Korean "raiders" be turned over, but the North Koreans refused. That enraged many senior generals in the Chinese army, who are demanding that something be done. Like revoking the "Mutual Defense Pact" with North Korea. Or maybe supporting a coup to remove the current North Korean leadership.

Strategypage.


Obviously, the Chinese have many more strings to pull than the west.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:46 am
 


Kind of funny how China is almost trying to play the innocent neighbour when really they are just as bad or worse than North Korea.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:57 am
 


Clogeroo Clogeroo:
Kind of funny how China is almost trying to play the innocent neighbour when really they are just as bad or worse than North Korea.


In fact, the USA is the world's leading arms dealer, so the merchant of death title belongs to them, much as it did the the USSR for much of the Cold War, when they were the world's leading arms dealer.

Seeing as the USA has supported a lot of these guys (Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan) at one time or another in the last 30 years (Cuba as well if you go back 50 years), the USA should also be considered a 'Merchant of Death to the Axis of Evil"...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am
 


Yes, yes, Boot. We are so guilty here in the west and we all feel soo bad. :roll:

Clogeroo: Where'd you find that one? It's very good.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:42 am
 


Ridenrain, where did you find this article?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:50 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
Kind of funny how China is almost trying to play the innocent neighbour when really they are just as bad or worse than North Korea.


In fact, the USA is the world's leading arms dealer, so the merchant of death title belongs to them, much as it did the the USSR for much of the Cold War, when they were the world's leading arms dealer.


Actually thats only if the numbers

1.) Don't Include Small Arms

and

2.) Are older statistics Russia has recently surpassed the US again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_c ... ms-exports

Besides when you think guerrillas which one of these do you think?

Image

or

Image

We aren't the ones supplying the arms and arsenals of africa. We instead are the ones making very expensive deals to our allies.

Between Israel, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and NATO are the vast majority of our sales. Others include Pakistan and India, there really aren't many of sizeable quantity beyond that.


Last edited by Thematic-Device on Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:51 am
 


http://www.strategypage.com/
A very good site that I make a daily read.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:55 am
 


Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:

Actually thats only if the numbers

1.) Don't Include Small Arms

and

2.) Are older statistics Russia has recently surpassed the US again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_c ... ms-exports


You're free to think what you want on this issue, but when the USA sells a squadron of nuclear capable F-16s to Pakistan (a nation that only 8 years ago did exactly what North Korea did last week - except that it tested FIVE bombs, not one; that malfunctioned BTW), it's very troubling. At least China can say they haven't given the North Koreans planes/missiles capable of carrying nukes.

Yes, AK-47s were produced in massive numbers and are endemic in wars across the globe, but as I said, those were mostly exported during the Cold War by the USSR.


Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
We aren't the ones supplying the arms and arsenals of africa. We instead are the ones making very expensive deals to our allies.

Between Israel, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and NATO are the vast majority of our sales. Others include Pakistan and India, there really aren't many of sizeable quantity beyond that.


I'll agree that the US is not sending the majority of its sales to Africa, and that's because they no longer have to counter massive Soviet aid to African countries. They do continue massive aid to Egypt. From 1997 - 2004, they sent almost $10 billion in sales and military aid to Egypt, more than they sent to Israel during the same time period. Egypt is still a part of Africa if I'm not mistaken.

They did however send a large portion of their military aid to developing countries (AKA the 3rd World).

$1:
From 1989 to 1996, the global value of direct commercial arms sales was US$257 billion, of which 45% was exported from the US. According to the 2005 annual US congress reports, 58% of all US arms trade contracts are made with developing countries.


Source

If that's not interesting enough, read this PDF file.


Last edited by bootlegga on Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:58 am
 


ridenrain ridenrain:
Yes, yes, Boot. We are so guilty here in the west and we all feel soo bad. :roll:


Typical right wing tactics, Riden...someone gives you a fact and you deride it. :roll:

I never said we had to feel guilty about it, just acknowledge that the USA sells weapons as well as China, but to far more countries and in far higher quantities than China does. And China has yet to sell nuclear delivery systems to a nuclear armed nation like the US.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:40 pm
 


I also thought that the US was the world leader but Thematic-Device
's link shows that's no longer the case. Looks like Victor Bout is back in business? :-)

The US, for the msot part, sells very high end products to western or friendly governments like Australia & Canada.

As for China:
$1:
China is fast emerging as one of the world’s biggest, most secretive and irresponsible arms exporters, according to a new report issued today by Amnesty International.

Amnesty Internationals report, China: Sustaining conflict and human rights abuses, includes several examples of irresponsible Chinese arms exports.

The report’s main findings include:


-More than 200 Chinese military trucks -- normally fitted with US Cummins diesel engines -- shipped to Sudan in August 2005, despite a US arms embargo on both countries and the involvement of similar vehicles in the killing and abduction of civilians in Darfur;

-Regular Chinese military shipments to Myanmar, including the supply in August 2005 of 400 military trucks to the Burmese army despite its involvement in the torture, killing and forced eviction of hundreds of thousands of civilians;

-Chinese military exports to Nepal in 2005 and early 2006, including a deal to supply nearly 25 thousand Chinese-made rifles and 18,000 grenades to Nepalese security forces, at the time involved in the brutal repression of thousands of civilian demonstrators;

-An increasingly illicit trade in Chinese-made Norinco pistols in Australia, Malaysia, Thailand and particularly South Africa, where they are commonly used for robbery, rape and other crimes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:20 pm
 


Pakistan is a friendly nation?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:33 pm
 


I guess that is the big question. They say all the right things but act as a breeding ground for Taliban terrorists. Is that because they can't stop it or they don't want to? How much does the West want to support their fight against the abiss?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:11 pm
 


Numure Numure:
Pakistan is a friendly nation?

As long as President Musharraf stays in power, once he's killed by Al Qaeda or people in his own Military or Intelligence Service Pakistan will become the World's most dangerous country.. 8O


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