[uwish]

freedom of religion also implies freedom from it.

The only way you can have any of your pain stick worshiping is because of a godless constitution and the secular state. PERIOD.

What the world needs is far more secularism and far less mono theistic man mad manacles.

Its pretty dam obvious that religion / god is man made, we as a species have been inventing gods for millennia and it shows. I find enough truth, beauty and wisdom looking at Hubble images or through my telescope than oooo, say the burning bush!

[andyt]

Unfortunately we don't have a Godless constitution.

[uwish]

no but the US sure does....

[andyt]

Yes, but they stick God everywhere. Money, Pledge of allegiance. And, they are certainly not a more secular country than we are. look at judges wanting to put up 10 commandments, prayers in congress, and the dominionist movement. For some reason some religious just feel so insecure in their beliefs they have to push them on everybody else.

[rickc]

Thanos Thanos:

Read somewhere that someone once did a death count from the Bible. Satan is credited with killing about five people directly. God however is credited with killing uncounted millions, mostly in the Flood, and things like nuking Sodom & Gomorrah and the plagues that were sent to Egypt. Yet according to it's followers God is the good guy and Satan is the bad one. Pretty much how Orwell did it in 1984, where Big Brother with it's hands covered in endless blood was the social saviour but Goldstein, who had only written a book, was the enemy incarnate.

Anything involving any of this bronze age delusional bullshit is a complete waste of any thinking person's time and energy.

I'm curious here. In this thread you claim that religion is some bronze age delusional bullshit. However I could not help but notice that you had some pretty strong (negative) words for God in your posts in the Dr. assisted suicide thread. I'm to lazy to produce a quote from that thread here, but in one of them you mention a particular conversation that you had with God on your way out of a hospital. You were serving him notice. You struck me as someone who was going through a rough patch in life, and were pissed off at the big guy for not adequately having your back. I'm willing to bet that almost all religious people have found themselves in that scenario numerous times. Now not even a week later its all bronze age delusional bullshit?

If you do not believe in God, than why bother having a conversation with him? Why get so worked up, and angry about something that you don't even believe in? Something that does not exist can get you that worked up? Keep in mind I'n not spoiling for a fight with you here. I am really curious here. Were you speaking over the top in the assisted suicide thread, or did you lose your faith in one weeks time?

[Unsound]

Rickc, while I wouldn't presume to speak for Thanos, I can make a guess.

Basically, desperate times, desperate measures. No athiests in a foxhole. Etc. When times are tough you reach out for whatever is there. Hope and faith are two sides of the same coin.

There's also a cultural component I'd say. We are exposed to religiousity every day, and it can't help but rub off. Iff only as figure of speech. How many atheists groan "oh nature" while sexing, as opposed to "oh god"?

I wouldn't read too much into it.

[andyt]

I"m very angry at God. I may mock Him, and logically I don't bevelieve in a guy in the sky, but you know the stuff you're taught as a child goes pretty deep. Even if we're not taught a particular religion, the idea there must be somebody running things is think is just instinctual - I think it's the basis for religions. Probably also a good deal of superego/parents in our innate sense of God.

When times get stressed, you go back to that childhood state, sure as fuck hope there's somebody looking out for you (parent), even if they seem inexplicably mean at times, you hope they at least have your survival at heart.

The universe that science and the mystical elements of religion reveal to us just don't make all that much common sense, hard to wrap your mind/heart around. Easier when stressed to revert to that earlier state of mind.

There's not God in foxholes because we really want him to exist in that moment, not because he's really there.

A book that explores the absence of God that I like is The Magus, by John Fowles.

[Thanos]

rickc rickc:

Thanos Thanos:

Read somewhere that someone once did a death count from the Bible. Satan is credited with killing about five people directly. God however is credited with killing uncounted millions, mostly in the Flood, and things like nuking Sodom & Gomorrah and the plagues that were sent to Egypt. Yet according to it's followers God is the good guy and Satan is the bad one. Pretty much how Orwell did it in 1984, where Big Brother with it's hands covered in endless blood was the social saviour but Goldstein, who had only written a book, was the enemy incarnate.

Anything involving any of this bronze age delusional bullshit is a complete waste of any thinking person's time and energy.

I'm curious here. In this thread you claim that religion is some bronze age delusional bullshit. However I could not help but notice that you had some pretty strong (negative) words for God in your posts in the Dr. assisted suicide thread. I'm to lazy to produce a quote from that thread here, but in one of them you mention a particular conversation that you had with God on your way out of a hospital. You were serving him notice. You struck me as someone who was going through a rough patch in life, and were pissed off at the big guy for not adequately having your back. I'm willing to bet that almost all religious people have found themselves in that scenario numerous times. Now not even a week later its all bronze age delusional bullshit?

If you do not believe in God, than why bother having a conversation with him? Why get so worked up, and angry about something that you don't even believe in? Something that does not exist can get you that worked up? Keep in mind I'n not spoiling for a fight with you here. I am really curious here. Were you speaking over the top in the assisted suicide thread, or did you lose your faith in one weeks time?

Don't read too much into it. It's just despair over a life that's pretty much fallen apart.

As for the hospital thing, just put it down as one of the last remaining things I still believe in. Go into any geriatric ward for a few minutes and see what happens in there and any belief that a long extended life is something good should rightly die on the spot. It isn't. Death is a gift and extending life beyond it's reasonable limit is an obscenity. I've believed in this for a long time. If I cash out in a work accident or get hit by a bolt of lightning on a golf course I'll be happy. Go to the seniors ward at any hospital and the idea of dying early makes a lot more sense than the opposite. If God, or any of the repugnant pro-life busybodies that claim to speak in it's name, have an objection to this then I've got two upraised middle finger ready to be pointed in their direction. I owe God nothing, and if it wants this life back from me then it's more than allowed to take it.

I will contend that human life on this planet would have been a lot better almost everywhere and for most people if monotheism had never crawled it's slimy way out of the Judean desert five thousand years ago. Leave all the wars and other torments aside, it's greatest crime has always been the false hope it engenders. On this world there's only winners and losers and it's too bad for anyone caught on the wrong side of that dividing line. If it even exists God simply doesn't care. If it did then the monsters that have been the winners for most of human existence wouldn't have been chosen to win. That they have is all the argument necessary for (a) God doesn't exist, or (b) if those are the kind of people God favours then it's insane, or evil, and really doesn't deserve to be worshipped by anyone.