[Zipperfish]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

Quebec has no exclusive privileges.

What Quebec does is extract more than its share from the federal government by threatening to separate. It is true, every other province could do that, but then we wouldn't have much of a country would we? As far as I can tell they want total autonomy all bankrolled by Canada. I quite enjoy french culture and enjoy having Quebec as part of Canada--I'd even go so far as to say that Quebec, in my experience, is the coolest province in Canada. But I find it annoying--as do many Canadians, particularly in the west--at the air of entitlement, and the fact that our tax dollars go towards funding a party dedicated to the break-up of ourt country. And while all provincial politics are corrupt to some extent, they seem moreso in Quebec.

$1:

Secondly, English is not forbidden in Quebec. That's a lie. Unilingual signs in non-French languages are forbidden. That's hardly the same thing, and many countries have similar laws.

Quebec language laws are an infringement of our freedom of speech and expression. It's a violation of the constitutional rights of english speaking people that live in Quebec.

$1:

I'm well aware of the Loyalist immigration to Canada and that some (but not all) of Canada's non-French roots lie south of the border, but you'll be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone that this is the reason why so many Canadians today, hundreds of years later, should be so fascinated with the US and so enveloped by US media culture that they're actually left confused and ignorant about their own history and culture. Sure there will be similarities. The core WASP culture remains present all over the Anglo world and most definitely in North America. But there are differences in national identity that must be recognised and reflected.

How about 90% of the population living within 50 miles of the border of the globe's premeinent superpower? We don't have much choice but to be enveloped by American culture.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Good point Zip, The bulk of the first half of my life was in Windsor, BEFORE the days of cable. We got 12 TV stations. The CBC was one, and on a good day we could even watch Global from time to time, the rest were all Detroit or Ohio stations. Kinda hard NOT to be enveloped by American culture and ideals.

[Zipperfish]

kenmore kenmore:

Well suck it up princess! I remember well when a french speaking person couldn't be promoted or even get a job in the government, even in Québec.... pay backs a bitch eh?

Oh we've been sucking it up out here in the west for years, kenmore. Sucking it up and shovelling money by the truckload to Quebec, while listening to arrogant bloviators like you telling us how lucky we H'english are that you'll even be in the same country as us.

But that big old pendulum swings both ways. Maybe we're looking at change in direction now, who knows? Neither Harper nor Ignatieff, the lesders of the biggest federal parties, are from Quebec. Harper is a Prime Minister from the west. That's a first in my lifetime, I think.

[Newfy]

I wouldn't have a problem with bilingualism if it worked both ways! All of my experiences with French- Canadians have left a bad taste in my mouth. Expecting me to speak to them in French and refusing to speak in English. Many of my British colleagues here in England are of the same opinion and often say they are more arrogant than the French and that takes some doing.

Don't get me wrong, I have met 1 or 2 Quebecers that I have got on with just fine but they are in the minority.

[EyeBrock]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

MacDonaill,

I don’t know where you originally came from, but as an immigrant, I decided to take Canadian history courses after I moved to Ontario from 3 years in Labrador.

The whole debate on forced bilingualism is about perceived fairness or lack of it.

It’s quite obvious that the French descendants in Canada care little for Anglo culture. You can go right back to the Seven Years War and on to see examples of this. The other issue is that this ‘reluctant’ Canadian province gets treated differently than all the other provinces. It gets a larger share of provincial transfer payments per capita than any other province. It controls immigration into it’s province, elects MP’s to the Federal parliament that don’t run in ANY other province than Quebec, and it has language laws that FORBID English in that province.
Hardly equitable treatment.
Those of us who don’t assess how ‘Canadian’ we are by how nice we are to the Québécois are rightly pissed off with this special treatment and privileges that Quebec gets exclusively.

Quebec has no exclusive privileges. Any province could choose to exercise the same level of immigration control, for example, as Quebec does. Any province could theoretically have a party only running candidates in that province (many actually do) and if the citizens of those province don't wish to elect them to office, that's their business. If some Quebeckers choose to vote Bloc, and the Bloc wins seats as a result, then that's their right to do so, but it is a right that everyone in every province has. If I were a Newfoundlander, I could vote for the Newfoundland and Labrador First Party, for example.

Secondly, English is not forbidden in Quebec. That's a lie. Unilingual signs in non-French languages are forbidden. That's hardly the same thing, and many countries have similar laws. I lived in Quebec for years, in one of the most French parts, and if I had wanted to I could have lived my entire life there without speaking a word of French. I could go to the store, interact with the government, watch TV, listen to the radio, borrow books from the library and hang out with friends all exclusively in English. So don't give me any horseshit about English being forbidden. That's a crock. English is alive and well in Quebec.

$1:

Oh on the American thing. You do know that the original non-French settlers in the 1790's brought with them their own particular brand of American culture? Thousands more Americans moved north until well into the 1860’s.
Anglo Canadians are descended from thousands of American refugees. It’s not a bad thing but Canada’s roots (outside New France) are from the 13 Colonies.

I'm well aware of the Loyalist immigration to Canada and that some (but not all) of Canada's non-French roots lie south of the border, but you'll be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone that this is the reason why so many Canadians today, hundreds of years later, should be so fascinated with the US and so enveloped by US media culture that they're actually left confused and ignorant about their own history and culture. Sure there will be similarities. The core WASP culture remains present all over the Anglo world and most definitely in North America. But there are differences in national identity that must be recognised and reflected.

Yea, I'm sure Ontario could get away with only excepting immigrants that have a decent grasp of English like Quebec can with French.
All pigs are equal in Quebec as long as those pigs speak French. Very Orwellian.

Are unilingual signs in French ok? Sure they are, then it's an unequal law. No matter how you dress it up, all we have to do is watch TV and we can see the hatred as FLQ supporters read their manifesto on the Plains of Abraham.

And people who vote for the Bloc are not separatists?
So they are voting for a party that wants’ Quebec to separate as it's main political platform, but a vote for it is not a vote for separatism?

Try the semantics on somebody less imbued with logic mate. Your apologies for the reluctant province don't wash.

[martin14]

Newfy Newfy:

I wouldn't have a problem with bilingualism if it worked both ways! All of my experiences with French- Canadians have left a bad taste in my mouth. Expecting me to speak to them in French and refusing to speak in English. Many of my British colleagues here in England are of the same opinion and often say they are more arrogant than the French and that takes some doing.

Don't get me wrong, I have met 1 or 2 Quebecers that I have got on with just fine but they are in the minority.

Thats too bad Newf, my 5 years living in Quebec were exactly the opposite.
But I did speak French there, as bad as it was.

Maybe that was the problem.

[martin14]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

And people who vote for the Bloc are not separatists?
So they are voting for a party that wants’ Quebec to separate as it's main political platform, but a vote for it is not a vote for separatism?

wont expect you to believe it EB, but the answer is no, it is not a vote
for separation.. All Quebecers believe that question gets resolved separately.

[MacDonaill]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Try the semantics on somebody less imbued with logic mate. Your apologies for the reluctant province don't wash.

Nor do your repudiations laced with bad faith, 'mate'. Here's why:

$1:

I'm sure Ontario could get away with only excepting immigrants that have a decent grasp of English like Quebec can with French.

They could (and probably should), but in the first place this is not even the case in Quebec, which accepts immigrants every day who don't speak a word of French. Knowing French is, of course, a plus and helps your application along, as it would help in any other immigration application for any other jurisdiction in the world to have knowledge of the local language.

Language classes are offered free of charge to new immigrants in Quebec from all over the world who don't speak French. I've met people in those classes from the Bahamas, Poland, Rwanda, Mexico, Brazil, the Middle East, the US and even English Canada. So once again, you prove how little you and many of the rest of you know about the province everyone loves to hate.

$1:

Are unilingual signs in French ok? Sure they are, then it's an unequal law.

Of course they are. French is the official language of Quebec. Why wouldn't unilingual French signs be allowed? If you went to Quebec, to areas heavily populated by other linguistic groups including English, you would see that there are signs in almost every language, and the law only requires that French be featured prominently. Have you ever been to Montreal? There's nothing wrong with that law, and any jurisdiction would be well within its rights to enact a similar requirement, and many others do. It only makes sense.

$1:

No matter how you dress it up, all we have to do is watch TV and we can see the hatred as FLQ supporters read their manifesto on the Plains of Abraham.

As much as I can't stand the fact that this reading was featured in the Plains of Abraham ceremony, I guarantee you that a majority of Quebeckers repudiate unequivocally the actions of the FLQ. Nonetheless, the events surrounding that organisation are an important part of Quebec's (and Canada's) history, particularly as it has to do with the French-English divide. The 'hate' you speak of, you only see it because it makes you feel better about and reasssures your own misguided ignorance towards Quebec which is a province and society you consistently prove to know little about.

$1:

And people who vote for the Bloc are not separatists?
So they are voting for a party that wants’ Quebec to separate as it's main political platform, but a vote for it is not a vote for separatism?

While I never said (you can reread my posts if you must) that people who vote for the Bloc aren't separatists, as long as you bring it up, that's actually true. If ever you found yourself truly aware of the goings-on of Quebec society, this would be just as big an evidence to you as it is to me and to anyone else from Quebec. Not all people who vote for the Bloc would vote 'yes' to a referendum on separation. There is a group of people in Quebec, a rather sizable one to boot, known as soft nationalists. These are people who consider themselves Quebeckers first and foremost, but not so much as to be outright separatists. These people can be easily convinced to vote for the Bloc if they believe that the Bloc will represent the interests of Quebec in the federation better than the other parties in any given election cycle. They know that sovereignty, in any case, cannot be achieved at the federal level and so a Bloc vote truly is not a separatist vote.

[Zipperfish]

$1:

There's nothing wrong with that law, and any jurisdiction would be well within its rights to enact a similar requirement, and many others do. It only makes sense.

Sure there is. Why do you think the Quebec laegislature had to invoke the notwithstanding clause to protect the sign law from judicial review? They know damn well it's unconstitutional.

[MacDonaill]

Newfy Newfy:

I wouldn't have a problem with bilingualism if it worked both ways!

The numbers show that far more francophones are bilingual than anglophones. So I think I'd be delighted if it went both ways as well i.e. anglophones actually learning French instead of francophones always having to speak English.

I've lived in Quebec for the past three years, and I can't really recall ever having a 'bad experience' with a Quebecker, whatever that means. Sometimes you run into an asshole, but what does that have to do with the fact that he's French-Canadian or any other ethnicity for that matter?

[MacDonaill]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

$1:

There's nothing wrong with that law, and any jurisdiction would be well within its rights to enact a similar requirement, and many others do. It only makes sense.

Sure there is. Why do you think the Quebec laegislature had to invoke the notwithstanding clause to protect the sign law from judicial review? They know damn well it's unconstitutional.

That's not what the Supreme Court of Canada, the country's supreme interpretors of the Constitution, have to say about it.

[In 1988]The Supreme Court remarked that the Quebec government could legitimately require French to have "greater visibility" or "marked predominance" on exterior commercial signs, however it could not enforce the exclusive use of French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_v._Quebec_(Attorney_General)

And that's the law as it stands today. Not unconstitutional, and totally reasonable.

[kenmore]

OldChum OldChum:

I do not like the price tagg it puts on all of us Quebec wants it then let them pay .

Hmmm some how I don't think Québec does want it... more like the feds want it.. but hey its good for the country... C'est la vie! suck it up!

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Actually it's kinda funny about this "bad experience" thing about Quebec. Now I'm not a fan or anything BUT, I have to say, if you go to Quebec with the attitude of, "fuck you, I'm speakin English, deal with it" you'll get some 'tude back for sure. When I go there I can speak two phrases in French. 'Do you speak English?' and 'Where's the john?' The only asshole I can honestly say I ran into was from New York

[EyeBrock]

The problem is, as MacDonaill says.

A majority of the Quebec population put Quebec before Canada. The rest of us are Canadians, Quebeckers are Quebeckers and Canadians when it suits them.

That's the crux of it and no amount of rhetoric apologising for the self-serving attitude of those inhabitants of New France will change it.

All you can do is take the money and tell us Canadians how like Yanks we are.

[Zipperfish]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

$1:

There's nothing wrong with that law, and any jurisdiction would be well within its rights to enact a similar requirement, and many others do. It only makes sense.

Sure there is. Why do you think the Quebec laegislature had to invoke the notwithstanding clause to protect the sign law from judicial review? They know damn well it's unconstitutional.

That's not what the Supreme Court of Canada, the country's supreme interpretors of the Constitution, have to say about it.

[In 1988]The Supreme Court remarked that the Quebec government could legitimately require French to have "greater visibility" or "marked predominance" on exterior commercial signs, however it could not enforce the exclusive use of French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_v._Quebec_(Attorney_General)

And that's the law as it stands today. Not unconstitutional, and totally reasonable.

I stand corrected. I hadn't realized they had amended the law a second time and let the notwithstanding clause lapse.