Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
Forum Super Elite
Forum Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 2218
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:39 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
I am a Canadian and i only want to answer to my own government and they to me not to some ossified 'royalty' an ocean away


Hmmm. Would you support Canada declaring itself a republic?


Definitely.

I get it thought for some reason some people love the royalty, dont ask me why they do. Probably the same reason why some people love Paris Hilton.

We have a constitution, the UK doesn't, that alone means were several steps ahead of he UK. We just have to get a Triple-E senate and were good to go. We owe nothing to the UK in the last century we've done more than our part to help them and there is no reason why we shouldn't remain friendly with them. But I think the time of "Queen and country" has gone long beyond it's shelf life.


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 65472
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:42 pm
 


A Canadian Republic. I'm thinking that would be quite interesting. 8)


Offline
Junior Member
Junior Member


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 pm
 


I agree, its time to abandon our ties to the monarchy. Our relationship with the US needs some work I feel, as its still one sided as Canada does not seem to be treated as an equal in regards to trade and security policy. IE. the beyond the border agreement.


Offline
Active Member
Active Member
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 224
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:42 am
 


In that movie you also missed the obvious fact that the Stars & Stripes which was used in the battle scenes did not exist in that form at that time. It was used so that audiences would be able to better identify who the Americans were.

I think too many Americans would have been confused by the Grand Union flag which was carried into battle in several early engagements:

Image[/quote]

Thanks Bart

Sorry..I know that movie had nothing to do with the War of 1812 but I just had to throw it in there to illustrate the fact that the movies are more entertainment than fact.
As Ann Medina on the History Channel always asks before the start of History on Film..."Fact or Fiction"?

For those that prefer their history in DVD form you can get The History Channel Presents: The War of 1812 2 Disks(DVD)

Which I found lacking when it comes to the invasion of Canada not enough good stuff happening I guess. Then it quickly veers off to Baltimore and the big win at New Orleans then the rest is filled with a bunch of odd stuff like Ironclad war ships that belong to the American Civil War for some reason.

The National Film Board of Canada also puts out a 2 DVD collection about the War of 1812 which is pretty good if you like your history in DVD format.

For those that prefer to read about the War of 1812 Gilbert Collins Guide Book To The Historic Sites Of The War of 1812 has a great deal of information in it's pages. [B-o]


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:02 am
 


The big win at New Orleans happened after the war finished. Made for a good song even if it had no impact on the outcome.


Offline
Active Member
Active Member
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 224
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:25 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
The big win at New Orleans happened after the war finished. Made for a good song even if it had no impact on the outcome.


Well EB I was rather suprised at the one sided out come at New Orleans too I thought General Edward Pakenham was competent enough in Europe.

At least he looked good in Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe's Sword put out by the BBC although only fictional acounts of the war in Europe but I enjoyed watching the series.

I'm sure a little French help was present in the form of muskets from near by Haiti complements of Jean Lafitte.

General Winfield Scott too got a little French help in the form of Napoleon's War Manuals which I'm sure he found more than a little helpfull in the miraculous
"Transformation of the US Army"! PDT_Armataz_01_03


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
 Los Angeles Kings
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 4661
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:17 pm
 


Holy crap this topic is still going.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Toronto Maple Leafs


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 12398
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:16 pm
 


HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
I am a Canadian and i only want to answer to my own government and they to me not to some ossified 'royalty' an ocean away


Hmmm. Would you support Canada declaring itself a republic?


Definitely.

I get it thought for some reason some people love the royalty, dont ask me why they do. Probably the same reason why some people love Paris Hilton.

We have a constitution, the UK doesn't, that alone means were several steps ahead of he UK. We just have to get a Triple-E senate and were good to go. We owe nothing to the UK in the last century we've done more than our part to help them and there is no reason why we shouldn't remain friendly with them. But I think the time of "Queen and country" has gone long beyond it's shelf life.


The British Constitution comes from a variety of sources. The main ones are:

Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
Constitutional experts who have written on the subject such as Walter Bagehot and A.V Dicey.
There are two basic principles to the British Constitution:

The Rule of Law The Supremacy of Parliament

Long Live the Queen.


Offline
Forum Super Elite
Forum Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 2218
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:04 am
 


PluggyRug PluggyRug:

The British Constitution comes from a variety of sources. The main ones are:

Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
Constitutional experts who have written on the subject such as Walter Bagehot and A.V Dicey.
There are two basic principles to the British Constitution:

The Rule of Law The Supremacy of Parliament

Long Live the Queen.


Yes but they do not actually have a modern written charter or constitution which guarantees a peoples rights, frankly i have a lot more trust in a written document than a 80 year old woman who's biggest skill is being able to wave without moving her wrist, and her family?

Please, the biggest impact the 'royalty' these days is when one of them does something stupid (fairly often) or wears a revealing dress.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:34 am
 


FurTrader4 FurTrader4:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
The big win at New Orleans happened after the war finished. Made for a good song even if it had no impact on the outcome.


Well EB I was rather suprised at the one sided out come at New Orleans too I thought General Edward Pakenham was competent enough in Europe.

At least he looked good in Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe's Sword put out by the BBC although only fictional acounts of the war in Europe but I enjoyed watching the series.

I'm sure a little French help was present in the form of muskets from near by Haiti complements of Jean Lafitte.

General Winfield Scott too got a little French help in the form of Napoleon's War Manuals which I'm sure he found more than a little helpfull in the miraculous
"Transformation of the US Army"! PDT_Armataz_01_03


Well, it's never easy being the invading force attacking fortified positions in a hostile country. But I’m not going to let jingoistic nationalism get in the way of the facts, it’s obvious that the British Army were soundly beaten at New Orleans.


It’s funny how many Canadians will wrongly claim that it was Canada that burned the White House but there was not a Canadian in sight for the loss at New Orleans. Both military actions were conducted by the British against the Americans without a single Canadian militia member present.


Most of the stuff I’ve read looks at the various incursions by the British Army and Naval elements more as punitive expeditions than full on invasions. The US invaded the Canada’s with territorial aims. The British invaded the US with intentions to fight/burn/punish then disengage. Both very different objectives.


There has been a lot BS written in the US and Canada about this war. I’m enjoying the more recent views on the conflict which I find much more credible.


My personal opinion is that the US has re-written the facts on the war into something much more politically and historically palatable to distract from the fact that it was a militaristic land-grab that ended up failing to achieve its objectives. You never hear about the USS President’s capture by the RN and the encounter between HMS Shannon and the USS Chesapeake over here. The war is discussed with a lot of cherry-picking of the facts.


Nothing was really achieved by the US despite the deaths and property damage. It’s quite obvious that the UK didn’t want to invade and ‘re-take’ the US. The war got in the way of business and the British Empire was all about business.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 42160
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:56 am
 


Neither side...moreso the Americans than the British... really accomplished their 'primary' objectives. Secondary and tertiary objectives were successful though. The Americans sought to remove British influence from North America and bring the rest of BNA into their Union, something they turned down when asked the first time. That failed, and it actually unified the disparate British colonies into forming closer ties that would in a generation lead to a new nation. However, the Americans forced the British into finally recognizing their status as an independent nation. Americans could not be gang pressed into the Royal Navy.. there would be no rapprochement between Britain and her former colonies. Really in a sense it was the final phase of their War of Independence.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:25 am
 


See, the whole press-ganged thing has been over played. It was used after the fact by the US as a major cause of the war but in reality the US went for a land grab in 'retaliation'. If you look at the US actions in Florida and Mexico a pattern emerges.

It just so happens that in the case of the Canada’s the Brits got a bit miffed and responded to the invasion with force. Thomas Jefferson thought the whole thing would be a piece of piss or a “Mere matter of marching.”

If you read the various accounts from all sides it becomes apparent that the mainstream history on this conflict is full of crap, especially American crap.


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 65472
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:13 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
But I’m not going to let jingoistic nationalism get in the way of the facts, it’s obvious that the British Army were soundly beaten at New Orleans.


This was not a failure of the British Army, per se, but a failure of intelligence and strategy. The loss at New Orleans also illustrates the importance of the Mississippi River to Britain and the loss makes clear why Britain did not want that river in American control.

On strategy the British failed after the US War of Independence when they didn't insist on drawing US borders along the crest of the Appalachian. Instead they tacitly permitted the US into the Ohio valley while simultaneously thinking that it would be years before the US would access the Mississippi. Then the Louisiana Purchase occured and caught the British outmanuvered in the overall strategy to contain the US.

This left the Mississippi open to allow US reinforcements and supplies to quickly make their way to New Orleans without any British observation.

The second intelligence failure was in dismissing the activities of the French privateers as inconsequential. While the Royal Navy did concern itself with the French privateers they were not a priority as the prevailing wisdom was that the US would not openly ally itself with pirates and that the pirates would not risk prosecution by US authorities.

The combination conspired to lead the British Army to properly estimate the New Orleans garrison and the force that the British Army deployed against this garrison was well trained, adequately supplied, and had an impressive amount of artillery for the assault on New Orleans. They did not at all consider potential American reinforcements.

In strategy the British Army repeatedly failed to exploit American vulnerabilities by not being aggressive in seizing the initiative when American forces lost key engagements. Just my own humble opinion, but the habit of the British foot soldier of the day to knock off in the afternoon and brew up a pot of tea probably had more to do with this than any lack of initiative on the part of their commanders.

These missed opportunities allowed the Americans precious time to put up defenses and to prepare the sides of the various creeks and canals by removing vegetation that would have made it easier for the British Army to cross. In several instances local American commanders inadvertantly hampered the British advance when they threw up earthworks along the creeks and canals. The easiest dirt for the American soldiers to use was that from along the banks and the result was the widening of these creeks and canals sometimes by as much as fifteen feet. Unbeknownst to the Americans this act rendered much of the British bridging and fording equipment useless.

When the British forces did reach some of the earthworks their ladders ended up being too short and their bridging and fording equipment was then inadequate. This left all too many British units mired in mud and water at the bottom of these creeks and canals with Americans shooting down at them from above.

It is along these lines where the British Army suffered its worst losses.

On an aside, the British inclination to throw troops at heavily entrenched opponents at a huge cost in blood recurs in every war of theirs up through World War One. Forgive me, but I find the contemptuous attitude of British Army brass towards the ranks of times past to be despicable. That the British ended up with nearly fifty times the losses of the Americans in this engagement speaks less kindly of British officers than it does of the accidents of fortune that blessed otherwise woefully outmatched American forces.

Back on topic, in the instances of the overall battle where British intelligence was more or less accurate the Americans suffered severe and embarrassing losses with the one exception being a US fort that held out for several days against Royal Navy bombardment.

In sum, had the British controlled the Mississippi as they wanted to then the Americans would have lost at New Orleans.

It is a fine point of the outcome of the war but Britain and the United States came to a later agreement that permitted British merchant shipping unfettered and untaxed (by the US) shipping on the Mississippi via the Great Lakes with land transhipment at Chicago. When the Chicago canal between the Mississippi River and Lake Michigan was built that right transferred to Canada. To my knowledge this agreement is still in effect today and Canadian flag vessels can use the canal and river freely to get to and from the Gulf of Mexico.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR

GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23565
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:28 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
See, the whole press-ganged thing has been over played. It was used after the fact by the US as a major cause of the war but in reality the US went for a land grab in 'retaliation'. If you look at the US actions in Florida and Mexico a pattern emerges.

It just so happens that in the case of the Canada’s the Brits got a bit miffed and responded to the invasion with force. Thomas Jefferson thought the whole thing would be a piece of piss or a “Mere matter of marching.”

If you read the various accounts from all sides it becomes apparent that the mainstream history on this conflict is full of crap, especially American crap.


Well, the Leopard and the Chesapeake affair in 1807 raised a hue and cry at the time that may have set the tone for the underlying growling of pressing that may not have blown up during the war so much, but still established an angry issue that was added to all the other angry issues.

Fact is, history dumbs things down for the masses so that the War of 1812 began because the US didn't like it's sailor pressed, Japan started WWII because of the oil embargo, and Crimea started because of those blasted French Catholics in Jerusalem.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:00 pm
 


Agreed Gunny. A lot of stuff was re-written for the masses in the US pre and post 1812.

I like to get viewpoints from historians unfettered with political and nationalistic crap. Obviously everybody will carry a bit of that with them but a warts and all approach is one I value. There are some interesting accounts and viewpoints coming out of late. Some people might not like what they say but the stuff I've read by Andrew Lambert has given me cause to revisit my POV. Bart and I were chatting about Max Hasting's 'Overlord' which gives an interesting look at D-Day up to D-Day plus 90.

As the great sage Roger Waters said. "Things are not what they seem." I like to dig a bit deeper on the mainstream view of historical events. It's just like an investigation. Different accounts go to making up a complete picture.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.