[ShepherdsDog]

There are alot of people out there who don't understand the difference between German soldiers who served in the Wehrmacht and those who served in the various branches of the SS. Most German soldiers weren't 'Nazis'. The SS was the military wing of the party, and they were Nazis. Even some members of the party weren't the beasts that some make them out to be, Oscar Schindler being a prime example. The Yad Vashem declared several German soldiers, officials and citizens b'nei noach, for their acts of courage and sacrifice during the holocaust.

[Lemmy]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

my friends grandfather was in the SS, served in france, poland, and was part of the german division which advanced the furthest into russia. his grandfather told him before he died about the war, about the people he killed, houses he burned and crimes he committed. he was a die hard nazi-yet after the war, never committed a crime. there is no way you can tell me EVERY indoctrinated nazi died in the war and the survivors are just followers, its total bullshit. you have no way to prove this.

I'm telling you that, by definition, the indoctrinated remain indoctrinated. I didn't say that all indoctrinated Nazis died in the war. Many lived out their lives peacefully, but still indoctrinated to the Nazi cause. And if the Reich had risen again, they'd have goose-stepped right back into line.

Demian_164 Demian_164:

I think this kid COULD be helped. shouldnt we be trying? doesnt he at least deserve a fair trial?

No, we shouldn't be helping him out. We should pity him. His is a sad and tragic plight. But we owe no debt to help him. His trial was fair. He plead guilty and, even before so, did not content the actus reus.

Demian_164 Demian_164:

should he be locked in guantanamo and tortured for the rest of his life?

By "should" do you mean philosophically or practically? If you mean philosophically, no, he shouldn't be locked anywhere, he should be executed. If you mean practically, by Canadian law, he should be incarcerated for life in a safe and reputable detention centre.

[Demian_164]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Demian_164 Demian_164:

my friends grandfather was in the SS, served in france, poland, and was part of the german division which advanced the furthest into russia. his grandfather told him before he died about the war, about the people he killed, houses he burned and crimes he committed. he was a die hard nazi-yet after the war, never committed a crime. there is no way you can tell me EVERY indoctrinated nazi died in the war and the survivors are just followers, its total bullshit. you have no way to prove this.

I'm telling you that, by definition, the indoctrinated remain indoctrinated. I didn't say that all indoctrinated Nazis died in the war. Many lived out their lives peacefully, but still indoctrinated to the Nazi cause. And if the Reich had risen again, they'd have goose-stepped right back into line.

Demian_164 Demian_164:

I think this kid COULD be helped. shouldnt we be trying? doesnt he at least deserve a fair trial?

No, we shouldn't be helping him out. We should pity him. His is a sad and tragic plight. But we owe no debt to help him. His trial was fair. He plead guilty and, even before so, did not content the actus reus.

Demian_164 Demian_164:

should he be locked in guantanamo and tortured for the rest of his life?

By "should" do you mean philosophically or practically? If you mean philosophically, no, he shouldn't be locked anywhere, he should be executed. If you mean practically, by Canadian law, he should be incarcerated for life in a safe and reputable detention centre.

is the trial fair if he is detained for years and tortured first? im sure you wouldn't find it fair if applied to you. you cant speak for every nazi so you shouldn't try to. i dont think someone can be black and white indoctrinated. like you get a stamp approval and then you believe this for life? thats crap. people change all the time. this kid is still young.

[Lemmy]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

is the trial fair if he is detained for years and tortured first? im sure you wouldn't find it fair if applied to you. you cant speak for every nazi so you shouldn't try to. i dont think someone can be black and white indoctrinated. like you get a stamp approval and then you believe this for life? thats crap. people change all the time. this kid is still young.

Hey, thanks for the postcard, but I'm neither gay nor delusional.

[andyt]

He should have been tried in a proper US court. If the evidence against him was so convincing, then let a proper court rule on his guilt.

[Demian_164]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Demian_164 Demian_164:

is the trial fair if he is detained for years and tortured first? im sure you wouldn't find it fair if applied to you. you cant speak for every nazi so you shouldn't try to. i dont think someone can be black and white indoctrinated. like you get a stamp approval and then you believe this for life? thats crap. people change all the time. this kid is still young.

Hey, thanks for the postcard, but I'm neither gay nor delusional.

you must have been captain of the debate team in highschool

andyt hit the nail on the head. if his guilt is so obvious...why not a normal trial?

[Lemmy]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

you must have been captain of the debate team in highschool

Dude, you're the one that misread what I posted initially and chose to send the level of discourse on its downward spiral. You don't get to choose the high road after FIRST taking the low one.

Demian_164 Demian_164:

andyt hit the nail on the head. if his guilt is so obvious...why not a normal trial?

That certainly would have been preferable. But you're back at Fantasy Land. Do you want to live in reality or "what ifs"? If you want to live in reality, today, then your choices are: execute, detain forever or wait for him to show up somewhere in a dynamite vest. Take your pick.

[BeaverFever]

Fawkes and Eyebrock -
You should know that Canadians and Americans are killing people in Astan right now without a formal declaration of war, as was done in Korea, Vietnam, the Balkans, Somalia, Iraq, etc. What really makes what Khadr did a crime? Is Khadr guilty of murder just because he is the enemy, or do you think all combatants, including our own soldiers, are murderers? Who cares that he was not officially a member of Taliban army, he belonged to a group of fighters that had the blessing of Afghanistan's Tabliban gov't and were expected to defend that government. He is an enemy combatant.

Beyond that, as a 14-yr old, what options did he have, being raised and brainwashed in Terrorist camps practically from birth? Did you expect him to somehow magically learn ideas that were hidden from him and then single-handedly wipe out the entire Al Qaeda faction? He's far more a victim of his circumstances than the US soldier he supposedly killed; at least the US soldier was an adult who volunteered for service.

I get it...you hate terrorists and want to punish them so badly that you would probably vote to convict this guy of murdering Abraham Lincoln if that was the charge he was facing. But that's not thinking with reason, that's thinking with emotion, which IMO is a waste of your energy and air.

[putz]

Demian_164 Demian_164:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

$1:

I see his actions in defending a country he was taught to care for as no different than Canadians fighting for Britain or France.

That's an epic fail. I suggest you read into WWI and WWII again.

The big difference being the people that fought in those war were soldier Khadr is a murder NOT a soldier.

since you are wearing a t-shirt inside of khakis that makes you a murderer instead of a soldier?

According to Laws of armed conflict yes

[Thanos]

It's more that this family of terrorists is allowed to claim Canadian citizenship that seems to bother most of us. As far as I'm concerned, the value of Canadian citizenship is greatly cheapened by having to share it with the Khadrs.

These people are evil terrorist scum. They simply should not be allowed to call themselves Canadians.

[mikewood86]

Thanos Thanos:

It's more that this family of terrorists is allowed to claim Canadian citizenship that seems to bother most of us. As far as I'm concerned, the value of Canadian citizenship is greatly cheapened by having to share it with the Khadrs.

These people are evil terrorist scum. They simply should not be allowed to call themselves Canadians.

This.




Times 1 billion.

[putz]

Where the hell is everyone getting the idea of legitimate Taliban government? Only 3 countries ever recognized the Taliban. Legitimate government my ass!

[Demian_164]

Thanos Thanos:

It's more that this family of terrorists is allowed to claim Canadian citizenship that seems to bother most of us. As far as I'm concerned, the value of Canadian citizenship is greatly cheapened by having to share it with the Khadrs.

These people are evil terrorist scum. They simply should not be allowed to call themselves Canadians.

agreed. but this we brought on ourselves, we cant simply forget about them now. they are as canadian as any of us.

[Demian_164]

putz putz:

Where the hell is everyone getting the idea of legitimate Taliban government? Only 3 countries ever recognized the Taliban. Legitimate government my ass!

just speaking personally but i think the government is best which serves its people, and not international guidelines for a "legitimate" state. so i dont think international recognition is a requirement for a legitimate government. probably american and french governments post-revolution werent looked to kindly upon either.

taliban is a different ball game of course...but just sayin

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

It's more that this family of terrorists is allowed to claim Canadian citizenship that seems to bother most of us. As far as I'm concerned, the value of Canadian citizenship is greatly cheapened by having to share it with the Khadrs.

These people are evil terrorist scum. They simply should not be allowed to call themselves Canadians.

That's how I see it - he's no more a murderer than any soldier. He was a soldier for the team he chose to fight for. For that, he should have been a pow and been released at some point. Certainly not tortured.

But, I'm not crazy at all about him being in Canada. If we would find a way to revoke his citizenship, or even put him on trial for being a traitor, I would be all for it. Surely we would have put a German-Canadian on trial for treason if you chose to fight for Germany in WWII.

But we've gotta play by our laws, whatever they are. If we start making exceptions for people who we don't like, ie act outside the law, that's not a state we want to live in. What if one day the state decides not to like you? So unless we can charge him (unlikely) or revoke his citizenship (impossible) we're going to have him back. And once he's freed, if the police are too intrusive in watching him, he'll have a legal case for persecution. I hope CSIS are up to the job tho.