[Jabberwalker]

Thanos Thanos:

If it weren't for the nuclear potential the spectacle of a US military, hardened and experienced by the last 12 years of war in the Muslim world, putting that gaggle of over-rated Russian drunks, thugs, and bullies to flight would be absolutely hilarious. Hoping it doesn't happen, of course, because if Putin completely loses it or gets pushed to the brink the big toys are getting taken off the shelf and a few cities are going to disappear in a puff of heat and radioactive fire.

The Russians have a conscript army on top of it. They are notoriously shitty and unreliable.

[Thanos]

One thing to keep in mind though is, from June 1941 to May 1945, the Third Reich had a military that was vastly superior in practically every significant way to those sad sacks o' shit the Soviets had, and they still lost. Quantity beat out quality in the end. And in a nuclear age they won't have to go to the trade-twenty-men-to-take-out-one stratagem of World War Two. They'd just pop off a nuke over whatever army is attacking them, and even possibly over an American or European city, and then quality over quantity means absolutely nothing for the rest of forever.

[BeaverFever]

Thanos Thanos:

If it weren't for the nuclear potential the spectacle of a US military, hardened and experienced by the last 12 years of war in the Muslim world, putting that gaggle of over-rated Russian drunks, thugs, and bullies to flight would be absolutely hilarious. Hoping it doesn't happen, of course, because if Putin completely loses it or gets pushed to the brink the big toys are getting taken off the shelf and a few cities are going to disappear in a puff of heat and radioactive fire.

I don't know about that. Surely Russian forces sre less professional. But don't underestimate their ability.

Counter-insurgency is not the same as conventional war. And don't forget Russians have been fighting on and off in Chechnya and before thst, Astan so they sre not without experience. Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

[saturn_656]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don't think there were Russians in Grenada, only about 700 Cubans.

If I recall correctly, Bart said that he served in Grenada and the Soviet "advisors" that were there were the kind that engaged in combat.

Have to wait for him to stop back in and confirm that.

[Jabberwalker]

Thanos Thanos:

One thing to keep in mind though is, from June 1941 to May 1945, the Third Reich had a military that was vastly superior in practically every significant way to those sad sacks o' shit the Soviets had, and they still lost. Quantity beat out quality in the end. And in a nuclear age they won't have to go to the trade-twenty-men-to-take-out-one stratagem of World War Two. They'd just pop off a nuke over whatever army is attacking them, and even possibly over an American or European city, and then quality over quantity means absolutely nothing for the rest of forever.

Here's what happened in Russia: Hitler kept demanding that his troops dig in, stay put and fight to the last man instead of making intelligent tactical withdrawals (something that the Germans were superb at doing). Hitler spent armies in the plural in Russia by not letting his professionals get on with it. I believe that just such a suicide stand was ordered to several divisions in Crimea. They were eventually trapped and destroyed there. Had Hitler not interfered, they probably would have defeated the Soviet Union. Thne again, if it hadn't been for Hitler, they wouldn't have been there in the first place.

[Jabberwalker]

Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

The Western democracies have shown that they have that kind of stick-to-it-ness as well but there had better be a really good reason.

[Thanos]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Thanos Thanos:

If it weren't for the nuclear potential the spectacle of a US military, hardened and experienced by the last 12 years of war in the Muslim world, putting that gaggle of over-rated Russian drunks, thugs, and bullies to flight would be absolutely hilarious. Hoping it doesn't happen, of course, because if Putin completely loses it or gets pushed to the brink the big toys are getting taken off the shelf and a few cities are going to disappear in a puff of heat and radioactive fire.

I don't know about that. Surely Russian forces sre less professional. But don't underestimate their ability.

Counter-insurgency is not the same as conventional war. And don't forget Russians have been fighting on and off in Chechnya and before thst, Astan so they sre not without experience. Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

After the lies of the Bush Administration it's entirely doubtful right now that the American populace even has the moral will to take on the Russians if it comes down to a direct confrontation. The military, both in conventional and counter-insurgency fighting, wouldn't be much of a problem. Right now they have all the skill, experience, and equipment they'll ever need. But overall American morale right now and/or the willingness to pick up the material and financial cost of an open war against Russia? I have major doubts about that, especially since the American polity is so polarized and basically shattered right now. I have zero expectation that any Republicans would support President Obama at all, not even under the shadow of a potential war, certainly not in the way that the GOP did for Franklin Roosevelt in 1941 or even for Lyndon Johnson in the mid-1960's when the Vietnam build-up began. The fear-mongering, open hatred of the man, and the psychotic propaganda of the last six years have been too successful at destroying domestic American cohesion and unity, and there's no way that type of mental and emotional infection wouldn't affect any military effort against Russia.

[BeaverFever]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

The Western democracies have shown that they have that kind of stick-to-it-ness as well but there had better be a really good reason.

...and in the case of the US, there had better be a tax CUT too, as was the case with Iraq....which in the long run, could undermine the financial ability to fight.

[Jabberwalker]

... or "lend lease", so that you can hoodwink your allies into paying inflated prices for your cast-off gear for the next seventy years ...

[saturn_656]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

The Western democracies have shown that they have that kind of stick-to-it-ness as well but there had better be a really good reason.

I think Putin is trying to gauge what the west considers to be "a really good reason".

Given that attacking Ukraine hasn't produced any kind of meaningful response from the west he probably thinks he has much more leeway to burn through before we start to care.

[Zipperfish]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Also, a country that is basically an autocracy and willing to blow $50 BILLION on Olympics may have more political will to stick through a costly war.

The Western democracies have shown that they have that kind of stick-to-it-ness as well but there had better be a really good reason.

I think Putin is trying to gauge what the west considers to be "a really good reason".

Given that attacking Ukraine hasn't produced any kind of meaningful response from the west he probably thinks he has much more leeway to burn through before we start to care.

Well, don;t get me wrong, I'm with the Ukrainians all the way on this one, but they kind of folded like a Canadian Tire tent.

[martin14]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Well, don;t get me wrong, I'm with the Ukrainians all the way on this one, but they kind of folded like a Canadian Tire tent.

Yeah like they had a choice.

So much for the guarantees the UK and US gave about borders when the Ukrainians
had nukes, I guess they now see what a mistake that was.

The Czechoslovaks got fucked in exactly the same way at Munich.

Feels like 1938 all over again.

[saturn_656]

No argument there, but I think their restraint is tapped out at this point. Crimea was a gimmie that probably won't be repeated elsewhere.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Thanos Thanos:

One thing to keep in mind though is, from June 1941 to May 1945, the Third Reich had a military that was vastly superior in practically every significant way to those sad sacks o' shit the Soviets had, and they still lost. Quantity beat out quality in the end. And in a nuclear age they won't have to go to the trade-twenty-men-to-take-out-one stratagem of World War Two. They'd just pop off a nuke over whatever army is attacking them, and even possibly over an American or European city, and then quality over quantity means absolutely nothing for the rest of forever.

Here's what happened in Russia: Hitler kept demanding that his troops dig in, stay put and fight to the last man instead of making intelligent tactical withdrawals (something that the Germans were superb at doing). Hitler spent armies in the plural in Russia by not letting his professionals get on with it. I believe that just such a suicide stand was ordered to several divisions in Crimea. They were eventually trapped and destroyed there. Had Hitler not interfered, they probably would have defeated the Soviet Union. Thne again, if it hadn't been for Hitler, they wouldn't have been there in the first place.

Correct to a point, but here's what really happened in Russia. In the early weeks and months of Barbarossa, Russian soldiers were surrendering in droves whenever they had the opportunity. They thought this was going to be a war of ideologies and wanted no part of fighting for Stalin or Communism. IN fact, many of them volunteered to join the German army to help defeat Stalin, not that many were accepted and those that were accepted were mainly stationed on the Western Front.
It was when the average Russian soldier learned that it wasn't a war of ideologies but a war of extermination that they seriously stiffened their resolve to defeat the nazi menace that was invading their land and murdering helpless civilians, burning villages and torching farms.

The moment you give your enemy a personal reason to fight you is the moment your job gets a whole helluva lot tougher.

From that point on though, your post is bang on about "the little corporal's" meddling with tactical decisions.

[ShepherdsDog]

The Nazis had no dreams of world conquest or even the complete subjugation of Eurasia. Hitler would have been satisfied pushing the Soviets across the Urals, and leaving them there. Those Slavs left behind would have become a new class of serfs, serving the German settlers that Hitler planned on settling Russia and the Ukraine with.